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Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

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Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#271

Post by mikekchar »

wvenable wrote: post #232
joshmanders wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I waste my time applying if it specifically states a CS degree is required? If you don't REQUIRE it, state that. It's not encouraging at all. Last time I was applying for work, I sent out 150 applications/resumes, every single one I look at the list of requirements, if I don't meet one of them, I don't apply because it's a waste of my time.

I telling you exactly why! Certainly anyone who doesn't meet the requirements might not necessarily be considered. But if you meet 90% of the requirements and that last 10% is not having a degree, so what? Why not let the company decide not to hire you instead of you deciding for them in advance? Sending in a resume or filling out an application is pretty low risk. If a company absolutely won't hire you without a deg…

It's good advice, but I think the reverse advice is also true. As much as people are missing good opportunities because they don't apply for jobs they think they might not be qualified for, you are missing good candidates by not asking for what you actually want.

I would just say, "Degree in CS related area or related experience highly desirable".

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#273

Post by honkycat »

sodafountan wrote: post #206
commandlinefan wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the huge chip on people's shoulders about "not having a degree" Glad to see I’m not the only one who winces at this. As bad as intellectual snobbery is, reverse/anti-intellectual snobbery is worse: “we don’t take to all yer fancy book learnin’ in these here parts!” It often seems to be lost that the difference isn’t between somebody with a four-year-degree and somebody with 10 years of experience, but between someb…

It's interesting that you think you need to attend college to be an "intellectual", and that people who didn't attend or chose not to continue must hold "anti-intellectual" views, that should definitely tell you something about your own narcissism. It sounds like you went to college and I think that's great, I hope you learned a lot and got a lot of value out of it, but try not to disparage the people who decided not…

Hundreds of thousands? Most people don't go that deeply into debt. I think the average is like 30k. And that includes loans for housing costs.

Also, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Huge chip on your shoulder about something that has nothing to do with you. You are so mad about someone else thinking their college experience was worth it.

Don't disparage people who felt like their education was worth it.

You have no idea about other people's life experiences and how they came to the conclusions they have come to.

So maybe accept that some people got a lot out of college and your experience is not universal.

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#274

Post by souprock »

sokoloff wrote: post #147
mnm1 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many people with CS degrees don't understand those topics and many people without a CS degree do. So I don't buy this.

I've found it much more common for a non-CS degree holder to start down a path that boils down to "first, I'll solve the halting problem and then I'll apply that to the problem I'm actually facing" or similar foundational errors. (I say this as someone who has had a 26 year career in software without holding a CS degree.)

If you aren't demanding 100% reliable success, "first, I'll solve the halting problem and then I'll apply that to the problem I'm actually facing" is a viable strategy. My workplace does this, especially with the PhD holders. It's kind of amusing to put aside well-founded fears about the halting problem. If you are clever, it works more often than most people would imagine.

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#275

Post by honkycat »

jamesb93 wrote: post #179
honkycat wrote: post #136

How do you know someone doesn't have a CS degree? They'll tell you. You're right: Nobody cares you don't have a degree. It's not impressive, it is just normal. What I have a problem with is the huge chip on people's shoulders about "not having a degree" and insisting on dissing anyone who chose to go a different route. I have a CS degree, I went to school on a scholarship, did not have these massive loans and "wasted…

Sorry, but do you read your own comments out loud? This reeks of a kind if snobbery, just not the type you're snobby against.

Yeah people always drive by with this exact comment. My writing style comes off this way sometimes, I can't control how you interpret my comments. It's a social media post, not a great American novel.

Oh no my social media comment was read as "smarmy" by some internet drone. Yawn

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#276

Post by sodafountan »

ben509 wrote: post #236
sodafountan wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that you think you need to attend college to be an "intellectual", and that people who didn't attend or chose not to continue must hold "anti-intellectual" views, that should definitely tell you something about your own narcissism. It sounds like you went to college and I think that's great, I hope you learned a lot and got a lot of value out of it, but try not to disparage the people who decided not…

> but try not to disparage the people who decided not to stick around and are working in the same jobs as you Theory matters, classic example here[1], and if pointing out that people are making well understood mistakes because they haven't studied it is disparaging, so be it. [1]: https://github.com/promises-aplus/promises-spec/issues/94

That's certainly impressive, though 99% of developers aren't in the business of making high level language design decisions like that. I agree though I think it would be very rare to find a self-taught developer that's studied category theory and other high level mathematical concepts on their own. I think Brian Mckenna made some very convincing points with that article.

I don't think college is bad, I think debt is bad and for the vast majority of people entering software development the key is to get things done in a timely and efficient manor, I think it's pretty safe to say you'll never get the opportunity to apply category theory during your daily standup meetings with your scrum team as your managers are trying to meet deadlines for their clients, it's the unfortunate world we live in, if everything was free and nobody had to work hell stay in college your whole life. I wish I had that luxury.

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#277

Post by sodafountan »

honkycat wrote: post #273
sodafountan wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting that you think you need to attend college to be an "intellectual", and that people who didn't attend or chose not to continue must hold "anti-intellectual" views, that should definitely tell you something about your own narcissism. It sounds like you went to college and I think that's great, I hope you learned a lot and got a lot of value out of it, but try not to disparage the people who decided not…

Hundreds of thousands? Most people don't go that deeply into debt. I think the average is like 30k. And that includes loans for housing costs. Also, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Huge chip on your shoulder about something that has nothing to do with you. You are so mad about someone else thinking their college experience was worth it. Don't disparage people who felt like their education was worth it. You ha…

Did you even read my post? First of all I said tens of thousands not hundreds. There’s definitely people who go into hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt to attend school but that’s pretty rare.

Second I don’t know where you’re getting tuition plus room and board for 30K unless you had some sort of scholarship (which, not to drag race into it, seems to be increasingly difficult to get if you’re a white male).

Third I made it a point not to disparage you, I specifically said that I think it’s great if you feel like you got a lot of value out of your college experience. I don’t think anybody should disparage anybody, that’s the point. I’m not “anti-intellectual” because I made the financial decision to opt out of college.

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#278

Post by [deleted] »

mikekchar wrote: post #271
wvenable wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I telling you exactly why! Certainly anyone who doesn't meet the requirements might not necessarily be considered. But if you meet 90% of the requirements and that last 10% is not having a degree, so what? Why not let the company decide not to hire you instead of you deciding for them in advance? Sending in a resume or filling out an application is pretty low risk. If a company absolutely won't hire you without a deg…

It's good advice, but I think the reverse advice is also true. As much as people are missing good opportunities because they don't apply for jobs they think they might not be qualified for, you are missing good candidates by not asking for what you actually want. I would just say, "Degree in CS related area or related experience highly desirable".

[deleted]

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#279

Post by wvenable »

mikekchar wrote: post #271
wvenable wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I telling you exactly why! Certainly anyone who doesn't meet the requirements might not necessarily be considered. But if you meet 90% of the requirements and that last 10% is not having a degree, so what? Why not let the company decide not to hire you instead of you deciding for them in advance? Sending in a resume or filling out an application is pretty low risk. If a company absolutely won't hire you without a deg…

It's good advice, but I think the reverse advice is also true. As much as people are missing good opportunities because they don't apply for jobs they think they might not be qualified for, you are missing good candidates by not asking for what you actually want. I would just say, "Degree in CS related area or related experience highly desirable".

I asked for what I want -- if the candidate doesn't have that, it's up to them to sell me on why they'd be a good choice anyway. I want $100 but I might be willing to settle for $90 and a really nice cookie. I might even prefer that cookie but I don't know what cookie you have. It could be fantastic and worth way more than $10. Or maybe not.

I once got a job with zero qualifications for it -- in fact, the interview was almost entirely just me asking the interviewers how to do the job! They had other applicants but I guess my total and complete lack of experience didn't scare them off. The job was initially daunting but otherwise a fantastic experience overall.

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#280

Post by 29athrowaway »

Consider these sets of skills:

a) skills acquired through a CS program

b) skills acquired on the job

c) skills acquired in a programming bootcamp

d) skills acquired studying on your own (MOOC, books, videos, documentation, etc.)

To build the first iterations of a product, you may need only c) and d).

Once that product gets traction, things get exponentially more difficult and problems can get very abstract. That's when a) and b) makes a difference.

Most software engineers can create a simple Twitter clone, but only a small tiny fraction can make it work at Twitter scale.

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