Caesarean babies have different gut bacteria, microbiome study finds • Hacker News Board

Re: Caesarean babies have different gut bacteria, microbiome study finds

#91

Post by tssva » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 1:39 AM UTC

giarc wrote: post #17

This has been known for quite a while, basically passing through the non sterile vaginal canal vs the sterile (or close to it) abdominal wall yields differences. This has lead to some questionable practices such as "vaginal seeding" whereby new moms will swab their vagina and then seed their babies shortly after birth (usually through placing the gauze in babies mouth or around their face). This comes up not infreque…

The article addresses this practice and states that the bacteria found in babies born vaginally differs from the bacteria found in the vaginal canal this further calling into question this practice. The bacteria instead seems to come from the mother's gut.

Re: Caesarean babies have different gut bacteria, microbiome study finds

#92

Post by robbiep » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 1:50 AM UTC

trhway wrote: post #89

robbiep wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. This is new knowledge since I was at medical school. The paper you link however is not at all convincing. A better paper here: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2019.0112... Does a better job of explaining things. Interestingly the species isolated are highly homogenous - https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/454989/fmicb-10-0... Most samples had only a single species isolated from mecon…

I'm not insisting on specific source of bacteria. I mentioned it only as illustrative detail/example, and it only distracted (who knew that here would be a medical professional for whom getting such details right is naturally important - the same way like it is very distracting for coders when movies get computers related details wrong :) from the main point that baby coming out of C-section may have antibiotics in h…

I take your point but it’s not binary - in the sense that I have strong doubts that the MIC (Minimum inhibitory concentration) of antibiotics would touch much of a colonisation in a neonate should it be present.

Having a single dose of abx in an adult doesn’t kill everything; the intent of a pre-surgical dose of abx is because evidence shows it significantly reduces post op infections; and the antibiotic used is active primarily against gram positives (cephazolin 1-2g) whereas Pelomonas puraquae is a gram negative anerobic rod and more than likely not going to be touched, even if the MIC is reached (and my experience of obstetric theatres is the antibiotic usually (80% of the time) goes in only minutes before skin incision.

So; a couple of things:

- presuming no contamination in the study, the primary coloniser of neonates appears to be a gm -ve rod

- antibiotics given for caesars are active against gm +ves /aerobes

So while there may be a mechanism, it’s not highly plausible in light of the other known mechanisms affecting Caesar births vs natural (ie bacterial microbiome pickup during traversal of the birth canal) about which there is significant evidence regarding immune priming

Re: Caesarean babies have different gut bacteria, microbiome study finds

#93

Post by robbiep » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 1:53 AM UTC

Syzygies wrote: post #51

irrational wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You joke, and are being downvoted, but I had never ever thought about cunnilingus affecting ones gut biome. Is that ridiculous or even possible?

It certainly affects gut biome, personal observation and what I've read. Michael Douglas also believes this caused his cancer. It's a cliche that the kids from the rich side of town, who didn't put dirt in their mouths growing up, are the ones who get mono in college. Farm kids are healthiest; our immune systems need regular work they can manage.

Michael Douglas’ cancer was caused by HPV - a Virus not a bacteria. HPV is a well known oncogenic Virus

Re: Caesarean babies have different gut bacteria, microbiome study finds

#94

Post by tptacek » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 1:54 AM UTC

samstave wrote: post #90

kazinator wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not sense that you've read my comment critically. Because, for one thing, it says nothing about adverse effects increasing. Rather, the idea proposed is that effects can cluster together in time, without increasing in absolute quantity. When a vaccine is administered, the probability of some reaction follows some kind of curve that initially rises, and then drops off. If two weeks have passed and no reaction has…

This is exactly correct, with one caveat only: Aside from my daughter getting the chicken pox from the vaccine which is extremely rare, as a parent you observe your child’s reaction to every dr visit and vaccine (ideally) and if you know and can see that these have such put your child into an uncomfortable state or lethargy, then mellow the fuck out. The doctors don’t give a crap abt how your child feels after they l…

You are making a different claim than the parent. Their point is that simply from a scheduling perspective, and stipulating some adverse reaction from some vaccine, simultaneous vaccination maximizes the likelihood that you're going to experience that reaction at that specific time.

Your argument is that your kids feel crappy after they're vaccinated... so you get them vaccinated in 3 different stages. No matter what your brother says, the research appears to demonstrate that you're not improving your kid's experience; in fact, it seems like, if the parent comment is right, what you're really doing is maximizing the number of days they'll be uncomfortable, if they happen to have adverse reactions to more than one of the vaccines.

The thing we seem to know from the research is that simultaneous vaccination doesn't tax the immune system in such a way that a reaction to any one vaccine is more likely. Vaccinate all at once, or in 6 separate appointments: the number of reactions will be the same.

Re: Caesarean babies have different gut bacteria, microbiome study finds

#95

Post by tptacek » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 2:04 AM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #87

tptacek wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again, the question of whether multiple simultaneous vaccinations increases adverse effects is well studied, and the verdict is that they do not. It doesn't seem to me like trying to reason to the contrary axiomatically is going to get you anywhere.

I do not sense that you've read my comment critically. Because, for one thing, it says nothing about adverse effects increasing. Rather, the idea proposed is that effects can cluster together in time, without increasing in absolute quantity. When a vaccine is administered, the probability of some reaction follows some kind of curve that initially rises, and then drops off. If two weeks have passed and no reaction has…

Yeah, you're right, I knee-jerked that reply. Sorry.

Re: Caesarean babies have different gut bacteria, microbiome study finds

#96

Post by dpark » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 2:45 AM UTC

samstave wrote: post #37

filoleg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

idk man, I feel kinda ok with dismissing antivax/essential oils/healing crystals theories. Especially considering how many children got harmed (some to the point of death) by "crunchy karens" who decided that they know better than modern medicine and doctors. While every topic deserves to be questioned and not dismissed, some have been argued to death already, and I would feel ok with not getting into an argument abo…

The only issue I have had with vaccines, I have three daughters, all vaccinated; but I just don’t like how they cram like six vaccines into a single doctor visit. My middle daughter got the chicken pox vaccine right before we went on vacation to Chicago. When we got to Chicago, she got the chicken pox actually from the vaccine. I was there for work and wife and daughter were supposed to be fiddling about the city whi…

Splitting the vaccines across additional visits sounds terrible for everyone. It’s a much larger time commitment and your kid feels worse for an extended period of time. Your kid also gets more negative doctor experiences.

> I made the doctor split the vaccines into only two at a time and made three different visits over two weeks instead of six vaccines in one visit and it was a much better experience for Coraline.

Of course it was a better experience. Your second didn’t contract chicken pox.

Re: Caesarean babies have different gut bacteria, microbiome study finds

#97

Post by s3graham » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 3:24 AM UTC

primroot wrote: post #80

> “In many cases, a caesarean is a life-saving procedure and can be the right choice for a woman and her baby,” And in other cases it is a way to make life easier for medical staff? Here in Panama, babies are disproportionately born through C-section in privately run hospitals. Update: While I can't cite any stats for Panama, there is an article [0] that says "The rates can be even higher in private clinics. For exam…

"To posh to push", was also a saying a generation ago.

Re: Caesarean babies have different gut bacteria, microbiome study finds

#98

Post by jmts » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 3:46 AM UTC

erikrothoff wrote: post #5

My twin brother was born by caesarean. He gets asthma attacks from allergies that I don’t have. I’ve wondered for a while what effect a faecal transplant could have...

As a guy with a brother, I can't help but read this as yet another ploy to get one-up on the brother, but this time in the name of science!

Re: Caesarean babies have different gut bacteria, microbiome study finds

#99

Post by fromthestart » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 4:27 AM UTC

wdbbdw wrote: post #36

filoleg wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

idk man, I feel kinda ok with dismissing antivax/essential oils/healing crystals theories. Especially considering how many children got harmed (some to the point of death) by "crunchy karens" who decided that they know better than modern medicine and doctors. While every topic deserves to be questioned and not dismissed, some have been argued to death already, and I would feel ok with not getting into an argument abo…

Conflating microbiome interests with antivax mania doesn't make any sense to me, and I agree that "crunchy Karen" is a dismissive sexist tropE, especially in this context. Do any of you have even a passing familiarity with modern microbiome research? It's super fascinating and I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

> agree that "crunchy Karen" is a dismissive sexist tropE

So we're not allowed to use labels to draw attention to the fact that the majority of people who believe in [1] and spread information about things like spirituality, crystals, anti-vax, anti-gmo, etc are women?

Often times x-ist tropes are rooted in reality. Dancing around these associations doesn't do anyone any actual good beyond cheap virtue signaling.

1. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/10/01/new-age-bel...

Re: Caesarean babies have different gut bacteria, microbiome study finds

#100

Post by kazinator » Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 5:04 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #94

samstave wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly correct, with one caveat only: Aside from my daughter getting the chicken pox from the vaccine which is extremely rare, as a parent you observe your child’s reaction to every dr visit and vaccine (ideally) and if you know and can see that these have such put your child into an uncomfortable state or lethargy, then mellow the fuck out. The doctors don’t give a crap abt how your child feels after they l…

You are making a different claim than the parent. Their point is that simply from a scheduling perspective , and stipulating some adverse reaction from some vaccine, simultaneous vaccination maximizes the likelihood that you're going to experience that reaction at that specific time . Your argument is that your kids feel crappy after they're vaccinated... so you get them vaccinated in 3 different stages. No matter wh…

Also, the adverse effects won't all simply be additive when superimposed. Using a made up example, suppose Vaccine C by itself would give me a 0.9 degree fever the next day, and Vaccine D a 1.1 degree fever. If I get them together, maybe I will have only a 1.3 degree fever, not a 2.0.