Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#201

Post by food_eater » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 9:00 PM UTC

samstokes wrote: post #85

wvenable wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a hiring manager, I fully agree. All our job postings say "CS degree required". But if you have experience and a good resume it absolutely doesn't matter. It matter a lot more for juniors who lack any sort of experience. I think it make good sense for young people to get a degree but it makes less sense for seasoned professionals to go back and get one. If you don't have a degree but have experience, don't let the…

In case you're not aware, there is evidence [1] that this sort of "required but not really" job posting deters a lot of people, and especially women, from applying even if they would actually meet the (unstated) actual requirements. Making it explicit that you will accept "experience and a good resume" in place of a CS degree might increase the diversity of your applicant pool. [1] https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-d…

Yes! Can't waste a good opportunity to run the ol' women-are-perpetual-victims narrative. Good job for shoe horning that in there, 10/10.

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#202

Post by sunir » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 9:01 PM UTC

archeantus wrote: post #181

I dropped out of college about seven years ago, about 24 credit hours shy of getting my IS degree. The classes left were a mix of business classes I don't care for (Accounting) and generals I don't care for (Biology 100? PASS). I haven't had any problems finding great jobs as a software engineer throughout my career, including working at Apple in Cupertino straight out of college. Recently, a guy in my neighborhood w…

The degree is an accredited qualification that checks boxes. It may not have short term career value for you, but my degrees have helped me in some situations.

I used it to get my TN1 work permit. If you ever find yourself emigrating, even temporarily or even on a client project, that degree will get you across most borders to work. If you don't have a degree, it is much harder.

I used it on my IRAP grant application. If you ever want a grant from the government for a startup research project, and it requires a qualified individual, the degree is proof you're qualified.

etc.

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#203

Post by nullbyte » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 9:10 PM UTC

mixmastamyk wrote: post #33

mnm1 wrote: post #5

This only matters for one's first job, if that. Afterwards it's irrelevant. Regardless of what the job description says, it's never mattered in my experience working at well over a dozen companies in the last twelve years or so.

At a lot of places, yes. However, try getting even a "no thank you" form letter in response to a job post at a desirable company without a degree. First step in the hiring funnel: no 4-year degree --> /dev/nul. I live nearby Netflix, Space X, Hulu, JPL, etc with twenty years experience in what they do and have never even spoken to a single person at any of them despite applying for years. I'm good at what I do, now I…

Well there's your mistake. If you apply through their website, you're instantly being funneled into an HR tool that weeds out anyone without a BS in CS.

The trick is to get in contact with that company's recruiters using a site like LinkedIn. Establish a bit of rapport, send your resume and portfolio, and let them handle setting up your phone screening and technical on-site.

Recruiters are an amazing resource in our industry and are great for getting your foot in the door... Especially when you're being blocked by those automated HR filters.

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#204

Post by rmilejczz » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 9:15 PM UTC

mav3rick wrote: post #194

rmilejczz wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When as the last time understanding how threading works helped you in your day to day job? I ask earnestly as a professional self taught developer who doesn’t know how threading works and has never needed to

Any one working on any sort of back end infra needs to know this. Ask yourself how a simple webserver can process multiple incoming requests efficiently ? Or an app wants to do a network call without blocking it's UI from being updated.

So what does it mean to “know how threads work”? Do I really need a CS degree to use Go routines or redux sagas?

Tbh I wonder constantly if I should get a CS degree. I’ve been working for 4.5 years now and while I feel competent it’s hard to determine the value of things like this.

I can profile my code and optimize it, I can determine if a request is blocking and I can fix it using whatever tools are provided in the language or it’s ecosystem so what good does it do me to “know how threads work”?

Hope I’m not coming across as combative, I really genuine want to better understand this perspective of “developers should have CS degrees”

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#205

Post by optimuspaul » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 9:18 PM UTC

zzzeek wrote: post #36

I don't have a degree (though I do have a few years of college in the CS /engineering fields) and I'm pretty sure every programming job I've ever had required a "degree", if you were to look at their posted job requirements. If it's known that you can do the work (which is the kicker of course), I've never seen an employer hiring people to write code actually care about the degree. Even in academic environments I've…

> If it's known that you can do the work (which is the kicker of course), I've never seen an employer hiring people to write code actually care about the degree. Even in academic environments I've been offered programming jobs (obviously not teaching jobs).

I have recently started getting doors shut for me because of lack of degree. I have 20+ years of experience though and in many of those cases am/was already doing the job they would be hiring me for. I don't know that I'd be doing any better now if I had the degree. I'm at the top in my market already, in fact most opportunities for me tend to not work out because my base exceeds their willingness to pay (without regard for the lack of CS degree).

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#206

Post by sodafountan » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 9:24 PM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #162

honkycat wrote: post #136

How do you know someone doesn't have a CS degree? They'll tell you. You're right: Nobody cares you don't have a degree. It's not impressive, it is just normal. What I have a problem with is the huge chip on people's shoulders about "not having a degree" and insisting on dissing anyone who chose to go a different route. I have a CS degree, I went to school on a scholarship, did not have these massive loans and "wasted…

> the huge chip on people's shoulders about "not having a degree" Glad to see I’m not the only one who winces at this. As bad as intellectual snobbery is, reverse/anti-intellectual snobbery is worse: “we don’t take to all yer fancy book learnin’ in these here parts!” It often seems to be lost that the difference isn’t between somebody with a four-year-degree and somebody with 10 years of experience, but between someb…

It's interesting that you think you need to attend college to be an "intellectual", and that people who didn't attend or chose not to continue must hold "anti-intellectual" views, that should definitely tell you something about your own narcissism.

It sounds like you went to college and I think that's great, I hope you learned a lot and got a lot of value out of it, but try not to disparage the people who decided not to stick around and are working in the same jobs as you because they were smart/pragmatic enough to see the college experience for what it was.

Personally I thought college was a huge waste of time and money. We live in the day and age of the internet and yet we're paying tens of thousands of dollars to learn things that we can teach ourselves for free and the only reason we do it is because we're too afraid not to. Doesn't that sound ludicrous to you? It did to me, and that's why I saved hundreds of thousands of dollars on my student loans by switching to drop out. And before you hit me with the "It was all about the experience" argument, I'd agree, you paid for a very expensive life experience.

I'm now happily employed as a lead software developer making great money. If I need to brush up on my data structures and algorithms for an interview you know what I do? I go online. If I ever want to delve into machine learning you know what I'd do? I'd go online. Need to brush up on some math? You guessed it.

Strictly speaking I think you made a bad investment by going to college, does that make me an "anti-intellectual snob"? And as a follow up, does it make you "wince" when you see how much you paid to learn what I learned for free?

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#207

Post by optimuspaul » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 9:25 PM UTC

berdon wrote: post #100

samstokes wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case you're not aware, there is evidence [1] that this sort of "required but not really" job posting deters a lot of people, and especially women, from applying even if they would actually meet the (unstated) actual requirements. Making it explicit that you will accept "experience and a good resume" in place of a CS degree might increase the diversity of your applicant pool. [1] https://hbr.org/2014/08/why-women-d…

There's a balance point. When I did interviewing at FANG.Co I would occasionally just get people that were severely under qualified for the role. It might be a large swatch filter but the degree requirement does reduce the number of those applicants and time lost by devs doing technical interviews.

technical interviews are the worst thing ever. They prove nothing except that a candidate crammed for you exam and/or work well while being watched. I can't imagine either of those are useful.

I did an interview with one of the FAANG.Co once and ended up arguing with the technical interviewer because he was a douche. When I found out he would have been on my team I told the recruiter I wasn't interested anymore. They ended up turning me down anyway because I didn't get along with the guy. Basically he was asking me to implement a JSON parser in brainfuck, not a legit use for either of our time.

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#208

Post by 19870213 » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 9:25 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #31

I've worked with a bunch of people who don't have degrees. At the more junior level, you can tell the difference, because while they tend to be really smart and can pick things up quickly, they have funny holes in their knowledge -- CS theory that you'd only pick up from a CS textbook, stuff like Big O notation or A* search (ok maybe that one is a bit more common now, but in the early 00s you didn't really learn that…

The opposite is also true, for example, highly educated but still directly concatenating query parameters into SQL... "Oh yeah, the IDE provided warning was annoying, so I turned it off"

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#209

Post by mav3rick » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 9:26 PM UTC

rmilejczz wrote: post #204

mav3rick wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any one working on any sort of back end infra needs to know this. Ask yourself how a simple webserver can process multiple incoming requests efficiently ? Or an app wants to do a network call without blocking it's UI from being updated.

So what does it mean to “know how threads work”? Do I really need a CS degree to use Go routines or redux sagas? Tbh I wonder constantly if I should get a CS degree. I’ve been working for 4.5 years now and while I feel competent it’s hard to determine the value of things like this. I can profile my code and optimize it, I can determine if a request is blocking and I can fix it using whatever tools are provided in the…

Threads, processes and OS primitives are a big part of your foundational knowledge. In your own words, you are only limited at attacking an problem by the tools and language primitives afforded to you.

What about thinking for yourself when those tools have limitations ? For example, when you have a "heisenbug" very few tools can help you fix it. However, if you understand how threads work, what data they share, you have a higher chance of solving the problem. Your profilers etc. are useless in this scenario.

I realize this is HN so the notion of "why do I need this" is king. It's hard to show someone the world outside when they are so closed in their bubble.

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#210

Post by TrackerFF » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 9:26 PM UTC

zzzeek wrote: post #36

I don't have a degree (though I do have a few years of college in the CS /engineering fields) and I'm pretty sure every programming job I've ever had required a "degree", if you were to look at their posted job requirements. If it's known that you can do the work (which is the kicker of course), I've never seen an employer hiring people to write code actually care about the degree. Even in academic environments I've…

Straight out of college, I applied to this engineering job which looked pretty sweet. Big reputable company, seemingly interesting work, rumored to pay well - but one problem, I was woefully underqualified.

Ad stated "3-5 years of professional experience", I had _zero_ experience.

Ad stated "Masters degree, or Bachelors for very experienced candidates"

Ad had a laundry list of software and tools, I had experience with one CAD program.

But what the hell, I didn't have anything to lose, and the company was located a 10 min walk from me. So I applied.

Got called in for interviews, which lasted a couple of rounds, but managed to land the job. I know people with very similar stories.

So yeah, my advice would be for people to just apply, if they see something they'd like. Worst thing is you don't get the job, companies won't ridicule or blackball you for applying.