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Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

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Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#191

Post by ben509 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #60
wvenable wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a hiring manager, I fully agree. All our job postings say "CS degree required". But if you have experience and a good resume it absolutely doesn't matter. It matter a lot more for juniors who lack any sort of experience. I think it make good sense for young people to get a degree but it makes less sense for seasoned professionals to go back and get one. If you don't have a degree but have experience, don't let the…

> All our job postings say "CS degree required". But if you have experience and a good resume it absolutely doesn't matter. So, you lie about your actual requirements (how hard is it to add the classic “or equivalent experience” qualification?) and expect potential applicants to intuit your hidden meaning?

Nonsense. If you sell bread at $10, but at the end of the day (when you'd have to throw out unsold inventory) someone offers $6 and you accept, you aren't lying about your stated price.

As with any kind of transaction in business, the terms of employment are negotiable. A job posting is simply an initial ask.

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#192

Post by samstokes »

wvenable wrote: post #105
WhitneyLand wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why the heck would you say that on your job postings, or not pitch that it be changed to whomever runs HR? As a hiring manager you probably dream of finding more people like your best performers, yet this makes it harder. I agree there is value in a theoretical foundation and would also encourage people to pursue it. However it seems like a separate point from the reality of the market today. Even historically,…

On the other side, the vast majority of applicants are completely unqualified. Do I want to increase that problem? Not at all. To be fair, I may have lost people with lower confidence in their abilities and a greater fear of failure. That doesn't sound like a great loss. I'd rather encourage people to have confidence and get over their fear than lower the requirements. It's not as if these aren't important requiremen…

I may have lost people with lower confidence in their abilities and a greater fear of failure.

That HBR article I linked in the other thread actually addresses that. Their survey indicates that people are deterred less by lack of confidence in their abilities, and more by lack of confidence in your process to assess their abilities in the absence of a credential. The top-given reason (from both women and men) for not applying was “I didn’t think they would hire me since I didn’t meet the qualifications, and I didn’t want to waste my time and energy.”

Now maybe you're actively looking for people who hustle and won't take no for an answer (which isn't quite the same thing as "confident in their abilities"). Maybe that's your team culture, or your company culture. That's certainly your choice if so.

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#193

Post by gizmo686 »

new_guy wrote: post #186
joshmanders wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I waste my time applying if it specifically states a CS degree is required? If you don't REQUIRE it, state that. It's not encouraging at all. Last time I was applying for work, I sent out 150 applications/resumes, every single one I look at the list of requirements, if I don't meet one of them, I don't apply because it's a waste of my time.

Job 'requirements' are there to get rid of people like you. If you're not confident in your fundamentals then you won't apply because you can't tick all the boxes. If you ARE confident in your fundamentals then you'll apply and probably get the job and the posted 'requirements' won't even factor into it. Knowing that is the difference between 150 applications, and just 1.

You don't want to select for people who are confident. You want to select for people who are competent.

Unfourtuantly, these features are often inversly correlated.

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#194

Post by mav3rick »

rmilejczz wrote: post #153
mav3rick wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of self taught programmers have gaps in knowledge especially when it comes to synchronization, how threading works, basic data structure and operation complexity on them. Whenever it's required they say "it's not required for web development". Of course I don't say this for all but many of them have this problem. Bootcamps don't help.

When as the last time understanding how threading works helped you in your day to day job? I ask earnestly as a professional self taught developer who doesn’t know how threading works and has never needed to

Any one working on any sort of back end infra needs to know this. Ask yourself how a simple webserver can process multiple incoming requests efficiently ? Or an app wants to do a network call without blocking it's UI from being updated.

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#195

Post by mav3rick »

potta_coffee wrote: post #169
mav3rick wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is probability. The probability of someone having these gaps from a top 50 school is way lower than one without a degree.

I'd like to see the statistics that demonstrate the probability you claim.

Can you also prove self learners are proficient in the same numbers as CS grads ?

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#196

Post by mosselman »

archeantus wrote: post #181

I dropped out of college about seven years ago, about 24 credit hours shy of getting my IS degree. The classes left were a mix of business classes I don't care for (Accounting) and generals I don't care for (Biology 100? PASS). I haven't had any problems finding great jobs as a software engineer throughout my career, including working at Apple in Cupertino straight out of college. Recently, a guy in my neighborhood w…

Who cares about showing people you can do something without a degree? It might get you more money or different opportunities at some point in life at the cost of doing some classes. Which in turn will teach you something you didn’t know already know, which is also a positive and possibly fun thing.

It isn’t as if people are sitting around saying “wow look at archeantus doing all that stuff without a degree, he is sure telling them.”

Do whatever feels right for you, not others.

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#197

Post by mav3rick »

lostgame wrote: post #135
mav3rick wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of self taught programmers have gaps in knowledge especially when it comes to synchronization, how threading works, basic data structure and operation complexity on them. Whenever it's required they say "it's not required for web development". Of course I don't say this for all but many of them have this problem. Bootcamps don't help.

To counter - I have met all too many folks some with a CS degree that don’t understand these concepts, either. I hear about them every day because I sit next to the HR manager, and hear the horror stories of the blank faces when basic concepts were asked. The phrase ‘how did they even make it through a CS program?’ is common. Fortunately, I have a ton of experience with threading and data structures, I wouldn’t perso…

You maybe an outlier. I clearly said some are great. "Our" - you don't represent all self learners.

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#198

Post by ChrisLomont »

joshmanders wrote: post #174
wvenable wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point of my comment is to encourage people to who don't exactly meet the requirements to apply. I might attempt to make that more explicit next time but it's a slow process.

Why would I waste my time applying if it specifically states a CS degree is required? If you don't REQUIRE it, state that. It's not encouraging at all. Last time I was applying for work, I sent out 150 applications/resumes, every single one I look at the list of requirements, if I don't meet one of them, I don't apply because it's a waste of my time.

>if I don't meet one of them, I don't apply because it's a waste of my time.

I've gotten many jobs and not met all the requirements. If you're good in something they want, but miss something they want, they might hire you.

Especially if you're the best candidate among all the candidates, none of which often have all the requirements.

Not applying certainly takes you out of the pool.

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#199

Post by bduerst »

archeantus wrote: post #181

I dropped out of college about seven years ago, about 24 credit hours shy of getting my IS degree. The classes left were a mix of business classes I don't care for (Accounting) and generals I don't care for (Biology 100? PASS). I haven't had any problems finding great jobs as a software engineer throughout my career, including working at Apple in Cupertino straight out of college. Recently, a guy in my neighborhood w…

At the risk of committing a sunk cost fallacy, I would definitely say that's worth it since you are already so close and a sizable segment of society places a minimal expectation on having such a thing. Degrees are more a certificate that signal something to employers rather than actual vehicles of continued learning. Even if it's not needed now, it would certainly open more doors.

But that's just my opinion. Do whatever feels right for you.

Re: Show HN: I made a jobs board for developers without degrees

#200

Post by bartwe »

archeantus wrote: post #181

I dropped out of college about seven years ago, about 24 credit hours shy of getting my IS degree. The classes left were a mix of business classes I don't care for (Accounting) and generals I don't care for (Biology 100? PASS). I haven't had any problems finding great jobs as a software engineer throughout my career, including working at Apple in Cupertino straight out of college. Recently, a guy in my neighborhood w…

You probably should, more future security and possible pay raise
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