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Google's dropping H.264 in Chrome is not a step backward for openness.

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Re: Google's dropping H.264 in Chrome is not a step backward for openness.

#31
post #5

All the outcry over this I've read is basically a complaint that you can't ship one codec for HTML5 video, which you've never been able to do. That's what the whole argument over the video tag has always been about. The only difference this makes is that this cements the split instead of everybody expecting Firefox and Opera to give up and adopt H.264. If you were willing to ship just H.264 and flash fallback for Fir…

On desktops, falling back to flash for H.264 decoding is a pretty good strategy. On mobiles, though, Google's change has a bigger effect. Flash is abysmal (if existent) on Android devices--and now there is no clear solution that doesn't involve serving multiple encodings. Before this change, you could be comfortable that your H.264 HTML5 video would play on the majority of smartphones; the flash fallback was only nec…

There is no Chrome for smartphones, and so far no one has said anything about dropping H.264 on Android (although you can see it happening as soon as WebM extensions for ARM start being more popular).

(edited: typo)

Re: Google's dropping H.264 in Chrome is not a step backward for openness.

#32
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will be licensing and royalty issues. When a big company in Redmond says stuff like this, its called FUD. This is FUD, plain and simple. What technologies have patents, fees and/or licensing around them? H264, MP3, Flash, USB, Java, HDMI, CDMA, GSM, LTE, WiMax, Firewire, CD, DVD, BluRay, MP3, AMOLED, and many more. To argue that computing is going to collapse with the existence of all these is pure FUD. Its FUD…

Not so fast. These licensed technologies you speak of are not embedded within web browser standards. It's a big difference. Flash, for one, is a plugin. It hitches a ride with the browser, it's not part of its standardized, internal workings. Google probably will benefit financially from this change and the rhetoric from Google's camp probably is FUD. No different than what Apple is doing with it's proprietary App St…

How is bundling flash any different than bundling H.264 in Chrome? none of those are part of the HTML5 specification.

And in Chrome, flash is part of the internal workings. You can't update (or remove) the flash player inside.

Re: Google's dropping H.264 in Chrome is not a step backward for openness.

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't have a monopoly on a product like WebM that's now open sourced.

In real life you easily can, because of incompatibilities with the existing software. Eg. Chrome and Android are technically open-source but their direction and development are completely governed by Google. If you make changes and are unable to convince Google to incorporate them, the video generated by your software will be incompatible with all the millions of WebM decoders out there.

I do not care about WebM or H.264 since I dislike both, my comment will concern the license and the situation.

WebM have a Apache style license, you can grab the source, fork it and develop your codec, and you're not even obligated to open a repository including your changes, they can remain closed.

Google will not stop you from doing so and guarantees that he will not sue you asking for royalties, since a license like the Apache license gives the use of the patent for free.

The case of Android and Chrome is simple, Google employes the majority of developers in both projects, however Google does not employes the majority of Linux kernel developers an as a result much of the Android code isn't in the kernel.org code.

Similarly the directions of Webkit is decided by the two main committers: Google and Apple.

Re: Google's dropping H.264 in Chrome is not a step backward for openness.

#34
This is a weak article.

> It's called bait and switch.

Not really. If anything, it's the eventual use of market power for profiteering.

> But it would become another closed de facto standard, just like IE6.

Huh? IE6 is a browser not a standard.

> This is comparing apples and oranges. Flash is a plugin,

This is splitting hairs and a straw man. The user does not care or typically doesn't differentiate between something that's part of the browser and something that is a bundled plug-in. The user experience is basically the same.

So any argument using a criteria about building in a proprietary and closed standard to the browser versus bundling a proprietary and closed plug-in is at somewhere between fatuous and disingenuous.

> If you want to do any kind of video on the web, you don't have a choice. Flash is needed.

WRONG. Bizarrely wrong in fact since we're arguing about the HTML5 container for video and supported codecs. Flash isn't involved. This isn't vapourware either. Modern browsers already support it.

> it is much more likely that an open format will prevail in the end.

If there are two dominant standards, sites will be faced with a choice: double-encode everything or pick one. Many have already picked H.264. What's more likely? Double-encoding or simply delivering H.264 to Chrome via a Flash (rather than HTML5) container?

If anything, this move prolongs the existence of Flash.

> Just because a format is widespread offline does not mean that it is suitable for use on the web.

Is the author really suggesting H.264 a) isn't widespread on the Web and/or b) isn't suitable for use on the Web? Really?

> In other words: The processing will always be there, and instead of re-processing to a slightly more compressed H.264 file for online play, it can be converted to an open format.

If the author thinks this move will displace H.264 they are sadly mistaken. For one, the license fees for using H.264 are negligible for the largest players. For another, there is an enormous installed base of devices with hardware H.264 decoding. Hundreds of millions in fact, most notably the various Apple iDevices.

These provide a compelling use for the continued use of H.264 in the long term.

> As already explained, videos are typically re-encoded or processed in some way anyway.

Yes but double the processing and double the storage are real issues.

> Notice the word "plugin". It means that we're basically removing HTML5 video, and returning to plugins. All the benefits of native video disappear just like that

What benefits are those exactly? At least for now the user experience, HTML5 video is still playing catch up to Flash video in terms of user experience.

> If I am not mistaken, the share of open standards based browsers is growing at the expense of Internet Explorer.

Worst case for IE is still about ~50%. That still makes it the single largest browser. Chrome's share exceeds Safari's (AFAIK) but the latter is still significant and I can't imagine it getting WebM support anytime soon. Apple are very much wedded to H.264 support by virtue of their devices if nothing else (anecdote: I played 6 hours of video on a plane on my iPad using 10% of the battery).

> it is H.264 which takes away choice.

By definition, not giving someone a choice takes away choices.

All of the arguments for this move seem to be focused on the long term. That's fine but in the short term it will unarguably cause users and sites headaches.

> I also find it puzzling that Google is being accused of giving users fewer choices, while Microsoft and Apple aren't even mentioned.

Hold yourself to a higher standard (and, more importantly, preach those standards to others) and you will be the recipient of greater scrutiny.

At best, the author's argument descends to "two wrongs make a right".

Note: I'm saying arguing in favour of Flash. In fact, I consider the lack of Flash on my iDevices to be a feature rather than a limitation.

Ironically this moves will likely prolong Flash and slow the adoption of HTML5 as a result.

Re: Google's dropping H.264 in Chrome is not a step backward for openness.

#35
If Google is truly whole-heartedly after the openness of web video, they should go ahead and disable H.264 playback in the bundled flash plugin in Chrome. It's technically just a simple wrap around the stock flash plugin. Given their cozy relationship with Adobe, they might even get a special binary from adobe, cut down the download size of Chrome and save bandwidth cost (which I believe is a greater saving than the $6.5 million)!

Re: Google's dropping H.264 in Chrome is not a step backward for openness.

#36
post #29

You know what we actually need? A h.264-buyout. Let's ask MPEG-LA how much they are planning to earn by the time their licence runs out (2024?). It will probably be ~200 Million or so. Then ask the whole internet to chip in. Result: all the open source people are happy, and we all get to use the higher quality codec in any application we can imagine. And we also get to keep our devices with their battery efficient de…

Not going to happen. There are probably patents in there that they will use for the next codecs.

Re: Google's dropping H.264 in Chrome is not a step backward for openness.

#37
post #32
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not so fast. These licensed technologies you speak of are not embedded within web browser standards. It's a big difference. Flash, for one, is a plugin. It hitches a ride with the browser, it's not part of its standardized, internal workings. Google probably will benefit financially from this change and the rhetoric from Google's camp probably is FUD. No different than what Apple is doing with it's proprietary App St…

How is bundling flash any different than bundling H.264 in Chrome? none of those are part of the HTML5 specification. And in Chrome, flash is part of the internal workings. You can't update (or remove) the flash player inside.

I can tell you exactly how, as many others already have in this and other discussions: flash is a plugin; h.264 support is native browser code.

Google bundles flash for one reason only: to make sure that users aren't given the chance to shoot themselves in the foot by not upgrading. Everyone downloads the flash plugin because sites require it. It has 98% penetration (perhaps less now with more people using iDevices, but still very high). But people never update the plugin, which is a major security issue. Google has solved that problem in chrome.

And you are mistaken that flash is part of the internal workings of chrome. You can disable it: see about:plugins. And there is no need to update it since chrome takes care of that for you.

Re: Google's dropping H.264 in Chrome is not a step backward for openness.

#38
post #15

>I also find it puzzling that Google is being accused of giving users fewer choices, while Microsoft and Apple aren't even mentioned. They refuse to support WebM, after all. Err, Microsoft has already declared that WebM will be supported if a compatible plugin codec is installed on the machine. They just don't want patent trolls (successfully) suing them for shipping hundreds of WebM decoders. After all, Google is no…

It's worth pointing out that MPEG-LA also doesn't offer patent indemnification on H.264 or any of its other formats. I can't find where I originally read this, but EETimes mentions it at the end of this article: http://www.eetimes.com/design/other/4012977/MPEG-licensing-b... "Also, MPEG LA does not offer any indemnification guaranteeing that its patents do not infringe someone else's patent rights."

Worth pointing out? Sure, but let’s not forget that what MPEG-LA actually does is license to you all the patents which H.264 is known to use — so you’re probably not infringing anything, barring of course the insanity the USPTO perpetuates… If you have a patent for part of the H.264 process, chances are, you’re part of the MPEG-LA and getting royalties through that organization already, legitimately, without suing anyone.

Re: Google's dropping H.264 in Chrome is not a step backward for openness.

#39
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't have a monopoly on a product like WebM that's now open sourced.

Like GCC or WebKit or Java? Being open source does not mean nobody owns it.

Who has a monopoly on Webkit?

Re: Google's dropping H.264 in Chrome is not a step backward for openness.

#40

>I also find it puzzling that Google is being accused of giving users fewer choices, while Microsoft and Apple aren't even mentioned. They refuse to support WebM, after all. Err, Microsoft has already declared that WebM will be supported if a compatible plugin codec is installed on the machine. They just don't want patent trolls (successfully) suing them for shipping hundreds of WebM decoders. After all, Google is no…

As a nitpick, this is an Opera employee presenting his views, not those of Opera Software ASA.
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