United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
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Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
#452Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
#453Earlier quoted context omitted.
The PATRIOT Act is a big one[0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act
DOesn't contain carte blanche for the NSA to observe my communications. There are limitations and checks. They may not be a strong as some would like but the law give far from carte blanche permission.
Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
#454Earlier quoted context omitted.
Publishing timely facts makes you a journalist. Publishing older facts makes you a historian. There are no legal qualifications for asserting freedom of the press; everyone can do it. Anyone that has not entered into a contractual agreement with the US to protect classified materials can publish classified materials. It's just that the professional journalists, already established with the large news organizations, a…
I understand all of that, and what a journalist is, thanks. I simply didn’t realize they were suing over the book and not, say, they yers of reporting from the Guardian, Le Monde, Intercept, etc based on documents passed to those publications’ journalists by Snowden.
If you take your camera out, and point it at something happening in the street adjoining your home, and plan to post the story to YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, your own web page, send to your local television station, insert into a blog or print book, or have any other form of intent to publish, then for the purposes of exercising your rights, you are in that moment a journalist.
There are no special rights that Clark Kent enjoys as a staff reporter that Peter Parker cannot invoke as an independent freelance photographer.
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I believe that specifically, the NDAs in question have a clause requiring personnel who intend to publish books to allow the agency to perform a pre-print review, to ensure no accidental spillage of classified materials through publication. Due to the nature of the contracts, the sole arbiter of whether information is classified is the classifying authority, so even if something has been published internationally in a globally-recognized newspaper, and is now common knowledge to hundreds of thousands of people, the information is still classified until the authority declassifies it. Those subject to the NDAs are technically not even allowed to read that article in the newspaper, or that chapter of the book, unless they then immediately take steps to control the classified in it and report it to their security contact. Which is to say that you are supposed to wrap the newspaper or book up in an opaque cover and drop it off at your security office.
The actual security apparatus has evolved, but the legal framework is still very much from the 1950-1980 Cold War era, so if you do not do the patently ridiculous thing, you can be sued or prosecuted.
Snowden didn't give CIA, NSA, DIA, or whomever else he may have had NDAs with, the opportunity to edit his book before going to print, for obvious reasons, so he's in violation of the contracts. It is unlikely there is anything in there that has not already been published in newspapers. It seems like they're refusing to declassify information that can no longer seriously be considered secret, with the potential to cause harm to national interests, solely because as long as it remains classified, they can use the contracts to silence, suppress, or retaliate against the whistleblower.
Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
#455Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, that was what I was referring to when I said that one probably shouldn't have relied on those protections. However, it doesn't change the fact that he stole a tremendous amount of classified material that had nothing to do with what he felt civil liberties issues. Also doesn't change the fact that the Russian government outright admitted that Snowden shared Intel with them (according to the house Intel committee…
Do you have any credible evidence to back up your claims? It seems to me that you're spreading baseless accusations. > he stole a tremendous amount of classified material that had nothing to do with what he felt civil liberties issues. How could you possibly know this? The only people who had access to the full documents are just a handful of journalists. > Also doesn't change the fact that the Russian government out…
https://www.lawfareblog.com/hpsci-releases-full-snowden-repo...
> Again, any evidence besides some half-baked government PR? He didn't have any documents with him by the time he left HK.
What evidence do you have that he didn't? His public denials? Do you think someone in his position would have any reason to lie about such a thing?
But let's say he didn't take any materials with him to Russia. What was stopping Russia intelligence services from debriefing him?
Here is the quote from a member of Russian parliament (deputy chairman of the defense and security committee, Frants Klintsevich)
"Let's be frank," he says. "Snowden did share intelligence. This is what security services do," adds Klintsevich. "If there's a possibility to get information, they will get it."
That was in a NPR interview transcript: https://www.npr.org/2016/06/29/483890378/during-tenure-in-ru...
Maybe there's something missed in the translation there, but it seems pretty plainly stated there. And in the HPSCI report they claim ongoing contact with Russian intelligence services by Snowden. Now maybe they were just acting as chaperones for him and expected absolutely nothing in return. But that to me seems hard to believe.
Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
#456Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, that was what I was referring to when I said that one probably shouldn't have relied on those protections. However, it doesn't change the fact that he stole a tremendous amount of classified material that had nothing to do with what he felt civil liberties issues. Also doesn't change the fact that the Russian government outright admitted that Snowden shared Intel with them (according to the house Intel committee…
Are you or have you ever been employed by a US intelligence agency? You seem very skilled at subtly misleading with half-truths. We don't really know what unpublished documents Snowden took, and it is extremely naive to trust the state's allegations. The published info about defense and foreign intelligence was relevant to the American people because it demonstrated that NSA had been lying to congress and our allies.…
You're right that we may never know what exactly Snowden took, that's always going to be the tough part about the public evaluating classified information cases. Sometimes you'll find other pieces of the puzzle years later if you're lucky.
Either way, you should take what senior intel officials say with a grain of salt, they're always going to be cagey and particular with language. But looking at the Snowden case there are a number of things that are red flags with his story.
Was the NSA performing illegal surveillance on Americans? Yes. Did Snowden expose information that had nothing to do with those programs? Even by his own admission yes. Did Snowden even read all of the documents he stole? No, again by his admission.
I don't think Snowden was a stone cold traitor, but I also think there are some things about his story that don't add up. The truth is probably somewhere in a gray area.
Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
#457Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, that was what I was referring to when I said that one probably shouldn't have relied on those protections. However, it doesn't change the fact that he stole a tremendous amount of classified material that had nothing to do with what he felt civil liberties issues. Also doesn't change the fact that the Russian government outright admitted that Snowden shared Intel with them (according to the house Intel committee…
Snowden sacrificed his extremely lucrative career, his access and his ability to live in his own country to expose the illegal and unconstitutional conduct being carried out by the NSA. He put himself in extreme legal jeopardy to expose this illicit government activity and the lies of government officials like James Clapper, who perjured himself before the Senate when asked directly about these activities. In direct…
Certainly. Never claimed otherwise.
> In direct contrast to Snowden and his unselfish, principled actions are people like you, who spread blatant falsehoods, such as your suggestion that Snowden gave the Russian government intel.
That's kinda making a massive leap to call someone selfish and unprincipled simply for pointing out what came out in a Congressional report. Some people think Snowden is a hero, some think he's a traitor, but I don't attack the character of people simply for having either view point.
Snowden clearly exposed programs that used dodgy interpretations of the law to justify illegal surveillance. But that doesn't mean that he didn't cause other collateral damage, it's all but certain he did. And by his own admission he didn't read the documents he handed over to journalists, so he couldn't have known the full impact of what he was leaking.
So while he can be lauded for exposing illegal surveillance, there are some problems with what he did and how he did, and some open questions about his actions in this affair.
Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
#458Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem with Snowden is that: A. He did not try to whistleblow through any officials channels in the NSA, intelligence community, or Congress B. He stole somewhere around 1.5 million documents, of which the vast majority had nothing to do with the programs he thought were illegal The house intelligence committee report on Snowden actually concedes that he could have enjoyed whistleblower protection under the law…
You're making the same old arguments that gets debunked over and over again. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/19/washin... https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/941723524175187969
Snowden didn't read all of the documents he stole, instead he relied on journalists to responsible when redacting things. So that alone means he would have no way of knowing how much natsec damage he did. Not to mention the fact that often times classified leaks help adversaries figure out other classified information by filling in the picture.
As far as damage to national security, it's always going to be difficult to assess, but there's no way the Guardian or any media outlet can definitively claim there wasn't damage because they don't have the whole picture. In the case of SIGINT, if your adversaries learn your offensive capabilities they are going to develop countermeasures. If they learn that you've detected their spying activities, they are going to move to new ground. If they learn key things about your communications security, they will be better equipped to exploit them.
Just this week a story came out about how Russian intelligence services penetrated FBI communication systems and were able to eavesdrop on FBI counterintelligence efforts. These are the types of things that get compromised with leaks.
Ultimately it would be very difficult for Snowden to mount an effective whistleblower defense based on his actions. I can understand why he didn't try to report through oversight channels (see William Binney and Thomas Drake) but the fact that he didn't drastically weakens his case on that front. Then the fact that he stole and divulged materials which he had not even read means it would be harder claim that his leak was solely related to illegal spying.
Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
#459Earlier quoted context omitted.
Trust between US tech and the @DeptofDefense is what got burned down. Trust is key. There has been a concerted effort to break that trust to weaken the US position. The US is more resilient than that, and tech is smart enough to see through it. DoD will restore trust. It's time.
What has the DoD done to restore that trust?
Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden
#460Earlier quoted context omitted.
I fundamentally disagree that secrecy is the foundation of national security. Journalists have revealed state secrets countless times, and over and over the secret was kept to hide unjustifiable actions of government officials violating their oath of office and taking actions which harm national interests. There is a role for keeping certain information temporarily secret (i.e. don't publish where the active missile…
The state of journalism in any particular country is a very good cue to start with when trying to figure out the exact level of civilization present. Journalists not only have to be authorized by states to operate, but they must also be protected by those same states. This is the case in most countries except for exceedingly advanced ones, such as the US and most of Europe, where they can be allowed a great deal of a…