United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden • Hacker News Board

Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

#441

Post by mattkrause » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 12:37 PM UTC

txcwpalpha wrote: post #278

mattkrause wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth noting that "Standard Mail" has a specific meaning here, and refers to things sent in bulk, like newsletters and flyers. It is emphatically not the standard service you would use to mail your aunt a letter. That service is called First Class Mail, and is not to be opened.

That's incorrect. "Standard mail" is the type of mail service used for anything that isn't one of the other named mail services, such as First Class or Priority Mail. Things sent in bulk, such as flyers, are an example of standard mail, but that does not preclude anyone from using standard mail to send a normal letter.

I don’t think it is.

Perhaps you have a lot more aunts than I do, but everything I can find suggests standard mail had a large minimum (200 pieces?) and preprocessing requirements.

Here’s a page, from the post office itself:

“At one time, it was called Third-Class Mail. Today, it's known as Standard Mail. In 2017, it will be called (USPS) Marketing Mail. The U.S. Postal Service has proposed a name change for Standard Mail to better signal to customers that this mail is used primarily to market a product or service.”

https://www.uspsoig.gov/blog/names-and-prices-they-are-chang...

Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

#442

Post by behringer » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 1:02 PM UTC

lern_too_spel wrote: post #333

behringer wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edward Snowden showed us that the NSA can and does access our webcams remotely. So they are watching you even when you don't know your data is leaving your house.

Where "our webcams" are the webcams of non-US citizens outside the US who are of interest to national security.

Wrong. That's the entire point Snowden was making. That they are engaged in illegal domestic surveillance.

Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

#443

Post by lern_too_spel » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 1:33 PM UTC

cwkoss wrote: post #424

lern_too_spel wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Snowden repeatedly attempted to follow internal processes and was stonewalled. There is no evidence of this.

The only parties who could provide this evidence are govt agencies who are clearly not pleased with Snowden. Seems kind of silly to expect them to provide evidence to substantiate his claim. In the absence of contrary evidence, we should take Snowden at his word because none of his releases have been discredited as fabrications and thats the only account we have of the situation.

> we should take Snowden at his word because none of his releases have been discredited as fabrications

That's a low bar. He didn't forge any of the documents he released. He did, however, repeatedly lie about what the documents contained and to corroborate hid interpretation, he wildly exaggerated what he was able to do while at the NSA.

Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

#444

Post by lern_too_spel » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 1:35 PM UTC

behringer wrote: post #442

lern_too_spel wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where "our webcams" are the webcams of non-US citizens outside the US who are of interest to national security.

Wrong. That's the entire point Snowden was making. That they are engaged in illegal domestic surveillance.

The only illegal domestic surveillance program Snowden leaked was phone metadata collection. Where did any of his leaks say that the NSA would hack domestic webcams at will?

Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

#445

Post by tssva » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 1:36 PM UTC

colejohnson66 wrote: post #166

tssva wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not aware of any law that gives the NSA carte blanche to observe my communications. Can you site the specific law?

The PATRIOT Act is a big one[0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act

DOesn't contain carte blanche for the NSA to observe my communications. There are limitations and checks. They may not be a strong as some would like but the law give far from carte blanche permission.

Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

#446

Post by blaser-waffle » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 1:36 PM UTC

koolba wrote: post #331

kchamplewski wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be curious to see an explanation of why just knowing about jury nullification would disqualify you from being on a jury - obviously if you intend to nullify or "helpfully" inform the other jurors about nullification you should disclose it and therefore be disqualified, but I do not see how knowledge of nullification counts as something that should disqualify you if you have no intention of nullifying.

There’s generally very loose discretion to eliminate potential jurors. Often without providing any reason at all. A prosecutor, given the option and knowledge of the situation, would never willingly have a person on the jury that knows they could totally disregard the criminality of the charges at hand.

That works for the defense as well -- they're allowed to object to jurors too, for the same reasons: potential biases, ability to see through sophistry, etc.

Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

#447

Post by tssva » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 1:37 PM UTC

geggam wrote: post #229

jonnybgood wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be helpful if you could cite specifically where it says the NSA can do this. I don't see it anywhere on the wikipedia page.

Here is another https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_security_letter

"By law, NSLs can request only non-content information, for example, transactional records and phone numbers dialed, but never the content of telephone calls or e-mails." Also NSL's can be contested in court. No carte blanche to observe my communications.

Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

#448

Post by tssva » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 1:41 PM UTC

geggam wrote: post #214

tssva wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not aware of any law that gives the NSA carte blanche to observe my communications. Can you site the specific law?

Executive orders count ? https://epic.org/privacy/surveillance/12333/

Where in the executive order is carte blanche for the NSA to observe communications given? I can't find it.

Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

#449

Post by kerkeslager » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 1:48 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #171

kerkeslager wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That maybe has some implicit assumptions. If the entire populace of German adopted what you call the "principle", Germany would have fallen much faster and with less bloodshed. I suppose you're right, but I don't think the assumption that there won't be a mass exodus is a very unreasonable assumption. Many reasonable ethical principles would have prevented the Nazis from even coming into power if everyone in the co…

Sticking to your principles works on an individual level, you can't generalize to what the effect of that would be on the whole population. There were plenty of 'good' Germans who refused to become part of the madness. Plenty of them ended up just as dead as the victims on the other side of the conflict. And in the end it did not matter much. But one thing is for sure: they kept their conscience clean and that counts…

> And in the end it did not matter much.

I'd have to disagree with you there.

I spent time in Israel and in Brooklyn, and I've personally met at least 3 Jews who were alive when I met them because of good Germans/Austrians who broke Nazi law to help them escape.

I think HN often concerns itself with whole populations because a lot of what we're talking about is public policy, and policies at large corporations, which do affect large populations. But the fact is that for most people, the ethical choices we get to make only touch a few people at a time.

Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

#450

Post by stevespang » Wed, Sep 18, 2019, 1:54 PM UTC

Even before 911, The Branch Davidian mass murder in Waco proves that the US Gov't will murder innocent US citizens and then forbid anyone to investigate the details, such as gathering soil samples. Same happened at 911 site,although samples were snuck out and Dutch researchers proved evidence of nano thermite was planted in the trade towers.