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United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

justice.gov

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Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

#181

Post by LatteLazy »

reaperducer wrote: post #33

Can one of the internet lawyers out there explain why this is a civil lawsuit, and not a criminal lawsuit? I'd think that if he committed an actual crime, it would be a criminal suit. I thought civil suits were for people trying to get money out of each other. Or is this like how the feds couldn't get Al Capone for murder so they put him away for tax evasion?

A criminal charge has no effect as he can't actually be brought back for trial and can't be tried in his absence.

If you sue someone, you can serve their intermediaries (his bank or publisher etc). So then the case can proceed. By getting a judgement they can seize US book revenues.

Its a pretty cheap move imho but I think that's the logic: if you can't do something at least look like you're doing something.

Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

#182

Post by DanielBMarkham »

This may actually be good news. Somebody might have determined that it's not worth the political cost to prosecute him publicly, so they'll press civil charges, slowly make the criminal stuff go away, then it becomes a "normal" lawsuit instead of such a hot potato. (I am freely speculating here)

Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

#184

Post by pier25 »

HashThis wrote: post #21

This is the "It is illegal to inform the citizen base that the government has removed their constitutional right" lawsuit. The NSA and FBI removed every US citizen of their constitutional right, to privacy. Edward Snowden informed the US citzen base on their constitutional rights being removed. This lawsuit is the government saying it is illegal for any US citizen to inform all other citizens when the government remo…

It's worse than that.

What gives the NSA the right to capture private data from other countries?

Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

#185

Post by jacquesm »

okmokmz wrote: post #146
Simulacra wrote: post #56

He's broken the law in more than one ways. Regardless of his motives, he broke the law. We can't expect to hold Trump or anyone else accountable if we cannot hold responsible those who are entrusted to protect confidential information.

Yes, lets all blindly follow the will of the government without thinking for ourselves and in that way the government will be held accountable... oh wait. Can you name any major movements that created change without breaking a single law? Rosa parks not sitting on the back of the bus is a great example

> Rosa parks not sitting on the back of the bus is a great example

Not that great an example. The only reason you know her name is because of her arrest and the lawsuit that followed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks#Parks_arrest_and_bu...

Which - fortunately - does not apply to Snowden.

Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

#187

Post by mattkrause »

txcwpalpha wrote: post #167
mattkrause wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would imagine there is more of a compelling state interest in protecting against actual "things" (contraband, bombs, etc), whereas a letter can pretty much only contain "speech".

My original comment was apparently unclear in this, but in regards to the 4th amendment protections, there isn't a distinction between "things" being sent via mail and "speech" being sent by mail. Some letters of "speech" are not covered by the 4th amendment, just as some bulk shipments of "things" are covered by the 4th amendment.

That distinction isn't drawn in the 4th Amendment itself. It comes from from 39 CFR § 233.3, which defines the rules and procedures for searching mail ("mail covers"). There, a distinction is drawn between

(3)Sealed mail is mail that under postal laws and regulations is included within a class of mail maintained by the Postal Service for the transmission of letters sealed against inspection...

and

(4)Unsealed mail is mail that under postal laws or regulations is not included within a class of mail maintained by the Postal Service for the transmission of letters sealed against inspection....

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/39/233.3

I would guess the justification is that 1) the potential for mischief is much lower with a letter vs. an item and 2) the unsealed categories are usually cheaper (periodicals, etc) and the Post Office should be able to verify that the mailed item really qualifies for the lower rate.

Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

#188

Post by SkyBelow »

chrisdhoover wrote: post #78
indigochill wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your observation and statement, but also want to add there is a moral argument that if one objects to a law or a contract, one should remove oneself from under it (leave the country/company) rather than break it, even if the law itself is immoral. Not that I'm arguing one way or another how that applies in this situation, though.

There the concept of civil disobedience. You don't simply leave a country because you disagree with it, you change it. Refer to the King and the civil rights movement for more. Go further back to the other Martin Luther for even more.

There is also the option of ignoring it (piracy vs IP laws) and subverting it (many communities refuse to work with cops and handle justice themselves).

These are as illegal as civil disobedience (refusing to work with cops might be more legal in some countries). As to if they are more or less moral... what moral framework are we using to judge?

Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

#189

Post by namirez »

pier25 wrote: post #184
HashThis wrote: post #21

This is the "It is illegal to inform the citizen base that the government has removed their constitutional right" lawsuit. The NSA and FBI removed every US citizen of their constitutional right, to privacy. Edward Snowden informed the US citzen base on their constitutional rights being removed. This lawsuit is the government saying it is illegal for any US citizen to inform all other citizens when the government remo…

It's worse than that. What gives the NSA the right to capture private data from other countries?

Well, they claim the citizens of other countries are not protected by the US constitution. Not that I agree with them, but it might be harder to challenge this in courts.

Re: United States Files Civil Lawsuit Against Edward Snowden

#190

Post by dooglius »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #182

This may actually be good news. Somebody might have determined that it's not worth the political cost to prosecute him publicly, so they'll press civil charges, slowly make the criminal stuff go away, then it becomes a "normal" lawsuit instead of such a hot potato. (I am freely speculating here)

"The lawsuit also names as nominal defendants the corporate entities involved in publishing Snowden’s book. The United States is suing the publisher solely to ensure that no funds are transferred to Snowden, or at his direction, while the court resolves the United States’ claims. Snowden is currently living outside of the United States."

This is the actual goal here.

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