Richard M. Stallman resigns • Hacker News Board

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#651

Post by CathedralBorrow » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:33 PM UTC

bluecalm wrote: post #471

rimliu wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does this feel like such a witch hunt? Because you like him. If he were somone you did not like you'd be "good riddance". How do you fell about James Damore?

It's not true. I don't particularly like RMS, I don't agree with his views about free software and I don't like GPL as a license. I also think his views on many political issues are naive, go against human nature and if implemented would cause a lot of harm. Still, I think the way he was forced to go is shameful. Some journalists couldn't interpret a simple statement (sadly very common), started an outrage and the pr…

When you say "freely", do you mean free from any and all consequences?

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#652

Post by colechristensen » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:33 PM UTC

marble-drink wrote: post #505

I'm so relieved to find that at least on hacker news people can still evaluate this situation with reason. Out there it's a witch hunt and Stallman is now a witch. RMS is a great man but sadly has difficulties communicating with the wider world. This has been true of many great minds throughout history. It's sad to see it happen to one of my own heroes but I believe history will do him justice if we continue to fight…

There are a chain of media reports which inaccurately portray what Stallman was saying.

But look past that into what was happening.

Stallman was trying to defend Minsky who had sex with someone, a teenager, nearly 60 years younger than him on a billionaire's private island. There isn't an imaginable circumstance where what happened there was not, even in the best possible light, incredibly creepy.

His intellectual arguments were understandable in a way, but in the context of defending Minsky and in the venue they were wildly inappropriate and indefensible.

It doesn't matter how "great" you are or how socially awkward, any institution should fire you for doing something like that.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#653

Post by lanevorockz » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:33 PM UTC

Activists Ruins yet another thing, will there be anything left in the world once the Mao Moral Police arrests everyone ?

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#654

Post by Kye » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:33 PM UTC

noobermin wrote: post #511

kelnos wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One has to have the right opinion or stay quiet. I don't really see how this is so hard. Don't treat women poorly, in person or online. Don't talk authoritatively about subjects you don't understand, especially when those subjects (like rape and human trafficking) cause people intense pain. If you really do want to act this way, then you probably should exercise some self-censorship, and rethink your views, perhaps…

How does one learn what is wrong unless they speak out? You have to give people room to grow and forgive them when they fail.

Easy: don't speak authoritatively. Acknowledge the limits of your knowledge and invite better information from people who know better.

I would advise not speaking authoritatively even if you are an authority. People are less likely to offer suggestions and ideas you didn't consider if you act like you know what you're talking about. I learn all kinds of things by not sounding as certain as I usually am.

...they said, authoritatively. I'm a work in progress.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#655

Post by lanevorockz » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:35 PM UTC

sgt wrote: post #647

marble-drink wrote: post #505

I'm so relieved to find that at least on hacker news people can still evaluate this situation with reason. Out there it's a witch hunt and Stallman is now a witch. RMS is a great man but sadly has difficulties communicating with the wider world. This has been true of many great minds throughout history. It's sad to see it happen to one of my own heroes but I believe history will do him justice if we continue to fight…

It's disappointing to read many of the comments on HN today. As we know, rms is a very dear person to most of the Computer Science and programmer community. Through the years, he's said many shocking things. We've often disagreed with him. He's been extremely stubborn. At some points it's been comical. Yet we still see him as a technology treasure, and we should keep this in mind before judging him harshly based on a…

It is completely stupid standard to only support people that think exactly like you. That's not how communities are run, that's how communities are ruined. So sad that young people completely ignorant about society and social interaction became so unreasonable that they want to punish every single living person.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#656

Post by solidsnack9000 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:36 PM UTC

ineffectivtopos wrote: post #52

nemothekid wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the counter argument for what Stallman wrote? I've seen that the "press is going too hard on him", but, honestly, I think they were justified. What is the "big difference" to you? If someone, personally, said to me that that someone be absolved of a crime, because the other, coerced, party was "willing" at that moment, I'd seriously question their morals.

I mean, let's put aside whether the person might have reasoned the other party was willing. This line of reasoning is ridiculous. If someone appears 100% willing to you, and there's absolutely nothing different from a genuinely willing person, why should you be at fault because somebody else put that person under duress, or because they were lying (under duress or otherwise). If someone does a 100% legal thing accord…

There are a few other strict liability crimes (crimes where intent to commit the crime is not part of the burden of proof) in the US.

They are, for the most part, very minor crimes — things like parking violations.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#657

Post by lanevorockz » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:36 PM UTC

smallmancontrov wrote: post #591

marble-drink wrote: post #505

I'm so relieved to find that at least on hacker news people can still evaluate this situation with reason. Out there it's a witch hunt and Stallman is now a witch. RMS is a great man but sadly has difficulties communicating with the wider world. This has been true of many great minds throughout history. It's sad to see it happen to one of my own heroes but I believe history will do him justice if we continue to fight…

I'm far from certain RMS's only offense was difficulty communicating, but the "evolution" of his statements as they traveled through the media was terrifying to witness. Stallman: > the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Selam G. > [Stallman] says that an enslaved child could, somehow, be “entirely willing”. VICE: > Stallman insists that the “most plausible scenario” is…

VICE is literally a vice, it's a bad company giving moral drugs to self entitled people that see themselves as superior to anyone that thinks differently.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#658

Post by eropple » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:37 PM UTC

dangerface wrote: post #642

anotheryou wrote: post #574

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand even with this resignation he doesn't appologize for anything. He could even have made his point of thinking it's a misunderstanding and appologize, but didn't.

"Headlines say that I defended Epstein," Stallman wrote. "Nothing could be further from the truth. I've called him a 'serial rapist,' and said he deserved to be imprisoned. But many people now believe I defended him — and other inaccurate claims — and feel a real hurt because of what they believe I said. I'm sorry for that hurt. I wish I could have prevented the misunderstanding." https://stallman.org/archives/2019-j…

That's a "I'm sorry you were offended" apology. Which is not an apology at all.

Stallman decided it was a great idea to, in the wrong place at the wrong time and in response to a protest regarding someone he knew (Minsky, not Epstein), construct a hypothetical that exonerated Minsky and then judge that protest, again publicly, through that hypothetical. That's not a "believe he said" thing. That's what he did. He got tossed out on his ear for that and that's a thing he did.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#659

Post by kilo_bravo_3 » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:37 PM UTC

kstenerud wrote: post #633

5trokerac3 wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm normally 100% on board with condemning this Malthusian environment that has sprung up in the last couple years, but I don't believe that Richard Stallman is a complete victim in this scenario. He has a long history of using forums meant for technology discussion to promote borderline (and that's generous) social opinions, and of being openly hostile to people who don't tow his line. In this instance he ridiculous…

"His previous comments about minors on his personal blog, which I don't even want to dignify with a description (you can do your own search), leads me to wonder what other connections than money he had with Epstein." Speculation, which would not be allowed in a court of law, is unfortunately a perfectly acceptable character assassination methodology. And this kind of tar-and-feathering is precisely why we need offici…

>Speculation, which would not be allowed in a court of law, is unfortunately a perfectly acceptable character assassination methodology.

Why are so many people obsessed with applying the same standards used in a court to real life?

If someone is a jerk, I don't have to maintain a chain-of-custody for the evidence I use to determine that person is a jerk, and I don't have to have sworn testimony from reliable witnesses to apply the jerk label, and I certainly don't need the opinions of a jury of said jerk's peers.

Here's a job-keeping pro-tip, free of charge, for everyone: Especially if you are a public figure, don't talk about child sex trafficking unless it is to criticize it or else you may be fired.

Re: Richard M. Stallman resigns

#660

Post by rnernento » Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 1:38 PM UTC

gdfasfklshg4 wrote: post #510

marble-drink wrote: post #505

I'm so relieved to find that at least on hacker news people can still evaluate this situation with reason. Out there it's a witch hunt and Stallman is now a witch. RMS is a great man but sadly has difficulties communicating with the wider world. This has been true of many great minds throughout history. It's sad to see it happen to one of my own heroes but I believe history will do him justice if we continue to fight…

> I wish somebody would have simply advised him not to speak on such matters because nothing good could become of it. Maybe he needed a PR manager. That sounds awful, but apparently this is what the world wants: carefully filtered speech that doesn't stray far from what people already agree with. The world needs everyone to speak about every topic. If we all self censor then only the extremists will be speaking.

Yeah, I want to live in a world where people are afraid to speak what they truly believe even if it's controversial. They should be so afraid of losing everything they just keep their heads down and their mouths shut. Nothing bad ever happens in societies that operate like that.