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Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

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Re: Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

#191

Post by CRK0116 »

kmjg88nvf8 wrote: post #188
jkestner wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you’ve got time this weekend to do so thanks to unions.

Bullshit. Having valuable skills or something to sell that people want is what gives people freedoms and a good negotiation position. Not unions. If you want higher wages and more holidays, create more demand for workers, by creating jobs. That's the proper way to do it. Unions only benefit some workers at the expense of others - the ones who don't get a job because of minimum wages or because of bankrupt companies d…

Can I ask, at what point in your employment did you negotiate for weekends off?

Re: Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

#192

Post by kmjg88nvf8 »

CRK0116 wrote: post #191
kmjg88nvf8 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit. Having valuable skills or something to sell that people want is what gives people freedoms and a good negotiation position. Not unions. If you want higher wages and more holidays, create more demand for workers, by creating jobs. That's the proper way to do it. Unions only benefit some workers at the expense of others - the ones who don't get a job because of minimum wages or because of bankrupt companies d…

Can I ask, at what point in your employment did you negotiate for weekends off?

Not weekends, but I have often negotiated part time work, like only 4 days a week. Does that count?

Do you seriously believe people wouldn't get weekends off if it weren't for unions?

Re: Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

#193

Post by egypturnash »

kmjg88nvf8 wrote: post #192
CRK0116 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask, at what point in your employment did you negotiate for weekends off?

Not weekends, but I have often negotiated part time work, like only 4 days a week. Does that count? Do you seriously believe people wouldn't get weekends off if it weren't for unions?

Unions are generally responsible for the standard being 8h/day, 40h/week. Here is a random link off the first page of a search that goes into this. https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/sep...

Re: Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

#196

Post by kmjg88nvf8 »

egypturnash wrote: post #193
kmjg88nvf8 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not weekends, but I have often negotiated part time work, like only 4 days a week. Does that count? Do you seriously believe people wouldn't get weekends off if it weren't for unions?

Unions are generally responsible for the standard being 8h/day, 40h/week. Here is a random link off the first page of a search that goes into this. https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/sep...

Yeah but I wasn't making an argument about that particular arrangement. Also not sure I trust that link.

I wonder if unions also introduced the 20% time at Google?

Of course if masses of unskilled workers face a bad labor market, they'll have trouble earning good wages and good work conditions. They can unionize, that is, try to form a monopoly, to drive prices up. I think the same people who praise unions usually hate monopolies, which doesn't really make sense. All the issues with monopolies also apply to unions.

The proper way out of it is to increase demand and increase skills.

Unions may help some people at face value, but at the same time they hurt others. Minimum wages prevent some people from getting jobs - many of whom don't even show up in statistics as they are people earning just a few extra bucks. Maximum work hours hurt people who for whatever reason need more money and would like to work more. And other things.

Re: Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

#197

Post by iron0013 »

koonsolo wrote: post #186
dehrmann wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Critics of unions would point out that under-performing employees are more likely to benefit from unions, so they're more likely to try to organize them. I have no idea if this is actually the case. It certainly makes it hard to sort out what's actually going on, here.

I remember a story my father told me when he started working (in Belgium). It was a bit before 9am, and everyone was standing in front of their workbench. My dad, a farmers son, thought it was weird and started working on his task. A colleague came up to him and said "we only start working at 9". Since then he, like all the others, stood there doing nothing until it was 9 o'clock. Unions have a "us vs them" mentality…

Would the workers have gotten paid more if they started before 9am? If not, it wasn't a "the more we do for each other" scenario, it was a "the more the workers do for their employer, with no additional compensation" scenario.

Re: Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

#198

Post by joelx »

iron0013 wrote: post #197
koonsolo wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember a story my father told me when he started working (in Belgium). It was a bit before 9am, and everyone was standing in front of their workbench. My dad, a farmers son, thought it was weird and started working on his task. A colleague came up to him and said "we only start working at 9". Since then he, like all the others, stood there doing nothing until it was 9 o'clock. Unions have a "us vs them" mentality…

Would the workers have gotten paid more if they started before 9am? If not, it wasn't a "the more we do for each other" scenario, it was a "the more the workers do for their employer, with no additional compensation" scenario.

When you are trying to build a friendship with someone, do you only pay for coffee if they did it for you before? Or do you out out a good faith effort and buy them coffee or lunch a couple of times? Companies and employees are the same way. Companies will sometimes overpay someone in the hope for extra effort, or an employee may put in extra time in the hope for future rewards.

A win win approach is much better than a zero sum mindset to relationships and employment.

My employees who have a win win approach have been massively rewarded over time, those with zero sum mindsets don't last long here or anywhere else and never get beyond entry level.

Re: Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

#199

Post by koonsolo »

iron0013 wrote: post #197
koonsolo wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember a story my father told me when he started working (in Belgium). It was a bit before 9am, and everyone was standing in front of their workbench. My dad, a farmers son, thought it was weird and started working on his task. A colleague came up to him and said "we only start working at 9". Since then he, like all the others, stood there doing nothing until it was 9 o'clock. Unions have a "us vs them" mentality…

Would the workers have gotten paid more if they started before 9am? If not, it wasn't a "the more we do for each other" scenario, it was a "the more the workers do for their employer, with no additional compensation" scenario.

It's a total waste when you are there to not already start working. If you have such mentality, what is your boss going to answer when you ask "Can I leave earlier today?" It always works both ways. In game theory, tit for tat is still the best strategy.

My dad was always a hard worker, and he had a nice company car starting from the 80's, one of the first carphones, we got a computer from his work etc. So yeah, an employer does his best to keep the good workers, because if not, they will go somewhere where they are appreciated.

Re: Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

#200

Post by wernercd »

bgilroy26 wrote: post #140
wernercd wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why don't American's like unions? Unions are a layer of bureaucracy, red tape and an entity that cares more about the Union than anything else. Add to that, as a conservative and right leaning individual, the last thing I want is be forced to donate to left leaning organizations that go against my best interests. Color it for what you will... I think there are cases where Unions do important things. But most of tho…

>Unions are a layer of bureaucracy, red tape and an entity that cares more about the Union than anything else. These descriptors cover most human organizations. Churches, clubs, businesses.

The difference is whether you willingly join or not.

You choose to go to church, clubs or spend money at businesses.

If you're part of a union... chances are you don't have a choice.

The difference is that with the "churches, clubs, businesses" - when they do wrong... people go elsewhere (IE: Ask the Catholic Church).

With Unions? You're forced to stay with the Union if you want to keep the job.

IF the union is "mandatory" or the Church is - I think both of those situations are wrong.

If a union is truly worth the fee... it shouldn't be a the end of a gun (Government/Corporate/etc mandate, forced fees, etc).

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