Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How do managers get stuck? (2017)

elidedbranches.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 67 posts

Re: How do managers get stuck? (2017)

#31

Post by badfrog »

stormking wrote: post #28
cutenewt wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like the typical corporate line explaining why someone hasn't gotten a promotion: "A promotion for a knowledge worker role is typically a recognition of already having been operating at a higher level than the employee is currently mapped to."

Why would you need to explain why someones hasn't got a promotion? As an employee, you can expect a raise, sometimes, or a golden watch, maybe, after x years of service. But there is no reason to promote someone just for doing his job, no matter how good or how long he has been doing it. On the contrary, it would be dumb to do so. edit: typos

> Why would you need to explain why someones hasn't got a promotion?

Presumably because they asked you why they haven't gotten a promotion.

Re: How do managers get stuck? (2017)

#32

Post by zippergz »

cutenewt wrote: post #26
eitally wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Well, I agree, but with nuance. A promotion for a knowledge worker role is typically a recognition of already having been operating at a higher level than the employee is currently mapped to. This is not the same as promoting someone because you recognize potential, but those two concepts do usually coexist.

This sounds like the typical corporate line explaining why someone hasn't gotten a promotion: "A promotion for a knowledge worker role is typically a recognition of already having been operating at a higher level than the employee is currently mapped to."

It may be, but it also has the benefit of being the correct way to think about it. Because the opposite -- promoting someone before they have proven they can perform at the next level -- is exactly how you get the Peter Principle.

Re: How do managers get stuck? (2017)

#33

Post by badfrog »

human20190310 wrote: post #14
PorterDuff wrote: post #6

Just to play grumpy old guy for a sec., I can't say that I've ever seen this in action. In my experience. . Line managers rarely make the leap, if anything they jump laterally or go into 'new opportunities'. . Actually escaping the gig and advancing, and I'd say that being a manager manager is a far more desirable line of work, seems to be more tied to selling yourself and to being associated with high visibility/pro…

In my experience, managers who step into a role that someone else has already occupied tend to get stuck. Those who grab territory and take newly created roles as a company expands tend to move quickly.

> In my experience, managers who step into a role that someone else has already occupied tend to get stuck. Those who grab territory and take newly created roles as a company expands tend to move quickly.

Sounds like that could just be because the latter case indicates the company/org is growing quickly and making room for people to grow.

Re: How do managers get stuck? (2017)

#34

Post by stormking »

badfrog wrote: post #31
stormking wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you need to explain why someones hasn't got a promotion? As an employee, you can expect a raise, sometimes, or a golden watch, maybe, after x years of service. But there is no reason to promote someone just for doing his job, no matter how good or how long he has been doing it. On the contrary, it would be dumb to do so. edit: typos

> Why would you need to explain why someones hasn't got a promotion? Presumably because they asked you why they haven't gotten a promotion.

I would ask them why they think they deserve one. And if the answer is, because they have been doing doing such a good job for such a long time ... well, I think you can guess what my answer would be.

On the other hand, if they point out occasions where they stepped out of their comfort zone and succeeded, there might be a promotion on the horizon already and I would discuss with them what's still missing for it to happen.

Re: How do managers get stuck? (2017)

#35

Post by cutenewt »

stormking wrote: post #34
badfrog wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would you need to explain why someones hasn't got a promotion? Presumably because they asked you why they haven't gotten a promotion.

I would ask them why they think they deserve one. And if the answer is, because they have been doing doing such a good job for such a long time ... well, I think you can guess what my answer would be. On the other hand, if they point out occasions where they stepped out of their comfort zone and succeeded, there might be a promotion on the horizon already and I would discuss with them what's still missing for it to h…

Don't think most managers have the guts to explain why.

Most prefer to hide behind a corporate saying.

Re: How do managers get stuck? (2017)

#36

Post by walshemj »

ExBritNStuff wrote: post #27
stormking wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but I fail to see the difference, except "shows the potential to do more valuable work" and "having been operating at a higher level" being not quite the same. But this doesn't change my main conclusion. Can you please elaborate?

Using something like Helpdesk as an example; "having been operating at a higher level" is a Level 1 person who does Level 2 work, and "shows potential to do more valuable work" is a level 1 person who only does level 1 stuff, but knocks it out the park and looks like they will succeed doing higher level work.

Why would the company promote them your getting l2 performance for l1 pay.

This working beyond your level long term is a trap you should avoid your just being taken advantage of.

Re: How do managers get stuck? (2017)

#37

Post by walshemj »

habnds wrote: post #29
ExBritNStuff wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using something like Helpdesk as an example; "having been operating at a higher level" is a Level 1 person who does Level 2 work, and "shows potential to do more valuable work" is a level 1 person who only does level 1 stuff, but knocks it out the park and looks like they will succeed doing higher level work.

In my experience, companies that have a policy of type 1 promotions are not to be trusted with one's career.

Yes sounds like a company with rigid hierarchies "you cant have a chair with arms on as your not the right level".

Or rules about what the wood a managers desk furniture should be made of and how many square yards of carpet "he" was allowed - note the use of the male pronoun.

These are examples from a company I used to work for in the UK.

Re: How do managers get stuck? (2017)

#38

Post by quickthrower2 »

walshemj wrote: post #36
ExBritNStuff wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using something like Helpdesk as an example; "having been operating at a higher level" is a Level 1 person who does Level 2 work, and "shows potential to do more valuable work" is a level 1 person who only does level 1 stuff, but knocks it out the park and looks like they will succeed doing higher level work.

Why would the company promote them your getting l2 performance for l1 pay. This working beyond your level long term is a trap you should avoid your just being taken advantage of.

> Why would the company promote them your getting l2 performance for l1 pay.

Only temporarily. They'll probably find a job somewhere else, and now you've lost a great employee, need to find someone else that good and train them up again.

Re: How do managers get stuck? (2017)

#39

Post by stormking »

cutenewt wrote: post #35
stormking wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would ask them why they think they deserve one. And if the answer is, because they have been doing doing such a good job for such a long time ... well, I think you can guess what my answer would be. On the other hand, if they point out occasions where they stepped out of their comfort zone and succeeded, there might be a promotion on the horizon already and I would discuss with them what's still missing for it to h…

Don't think most managers have the guts to explain why. Most prefer to hide behind a corporate saying.

Well, then you have at least an answer to the question why those managers get stuck at some point ... ;-)

Re: How do managers get stuck? (2017)

#40

Post by walshemj »

hinkley wrote: post #18
chase-seibert wrote: post #11

I've done both roles, but my sense is that manager of managers is essentially a more risky role -- chances of being laid off are higher, with accompanying risk. Line managers virtually never get laid off. Compensation seems similar, as well.

I wonder sometimes if the almost-military model of business hierarchies is intentional, unintentional, or emergent behavior of the system. The line manager and lead developers are not unlike non-commissioned officers. They are supposed to be able to talk to the grunts, and even though they don't do the "shit", getting shit done is not abstract for them. They know how to do it in a more concrete way. If they didn't, n…

ehem "officer class" is the norm for all professional development roles - its a social class thing.

Its not obvious but the laundry files occasionally has a few mentions that might pass unnoticed by a non brit.

I have worked at an ex civil service place and there was a direct mapping between grade and the equivalent rank in the forces.

Post reply on HN