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E-books at local libraries: a fight between publishers and librarians

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Re: E-books at local libraries: a fight between publishers and librarians

#51

Post by moate »

Hitton wrote: post #6

Usually I'm against restrictions like this, but this doesn't seem that bad. It's only for ebooks and for first 8 weeks, with people waiting years for the next book of their favourite author, waiting 2 more months when they are not willing to buy that book is nothing.

The book is being bought. The libraries aren't getting these books for free.

If you, private citizen Hitton, want to buy this book the day it's released and then lend it out to every single person you know, you're able to do this. Why shouldn't the library?

Also, there are lending limits on e-books from libraries. It's not as if the library can buy the e-book and then lend it out simultaneously to 20,000 people. They're already required to rate limit how many people can have an e-book checked out at once.

Re: E-books at local libraries: a fight between publishers and librarians

#53

Post by AJ007 »

bovermyer wrote: post #32
meuk wrote: post #9

> very little of the cost of making a book is tied up in the physical format Either that's bullshit, or the costs are entirely artificial. I really, really want "Concrete mathematics" by Donald Knuth. I really, really don't want to pay €80 for it. A good alternative for me would be the e-book, but it isn't any cheaper. I doubt if anyone will buy the ebook for that price while there are free copies available online.

Some of this is economies of scale. It's fairly cheap per unit to print 1,000,000 copies of a book. It's much more expensive (again, per unit) to print 1,000 copies. Books like Lord of the Rings which are guaranteed to sell a large number of copies are much less of a risk to print large numbers of than books like Concrete Mathematics . The publisher rolls that expectation into the retail price. Additionally, all one-…

The Doom and Wolfenstein 3D Game Engine Black Book(s) were priced at cost, per the author. Print on demand full color is very expensive.

Re: E-books at local libraries: a fight between publishers and librarians

#54

Post by orbifold »

hrktb wrote: post #37
tadzik_ wrote: post #8

> There’s a tension in e-book pricing generally between consumer expectations that a digital file will be less expensive than a physical copy and the reality that very little of the cost of making a book is tied up in the physical format There's more to this than the cost of making a book. As a consumer, a physical thing inherently has more value than a digital one because it keeps the value after I buy it. I can len…

> a consumer, a physical thing inherently has more value than a digital one because it keeps the value after I buy it. I can lend the book to someone legally after I'm done with it. I can sell it, trade it, or donate to a library. For me this was true ten years ago. The tides have shifted. Now a physical copy means: it will degrade faster than my devices (think books for children). It will take physical place, we’ll…

Physical books last at least ~50 years. That is longer than any physical computer lasts and longer than any of the companies that offer cloud services (IBM doesn't offer e-Books yet) have existed. There is a good chance that some of them will go bankrupt over this time.

Re: E-books at local libraries: a fight between publishers and librarians

#55

Post by falcolas »

johnchristopher wrote: post #19
avar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a consumer, the digital e-book is inherently more valuable than a physical book. I often re-read or consult books (or chapters) I've read on a whim. If I had to e.g. take my library on vacations to do the same thing I can trivially do on a Kindle I'd need to travel with a minivan full of books. There's all sorts of other value, like search functions, not having to fill my house or storage box with books, and avoid…

> I often re-read or consult books (or chapters) I've read on a whim. If I had to e.g. take my library on vacations to do the same thing I can trivially do on a Kindle I'd need to travel with a minivan full of books. Isn't that a FOMO argument, though ? As a consumer the advantage of e-books are: ease of organization and ease of buying, no page flipping sounds in bed, ease of transportation. But what I really want ?…

> A real, thick book, with something like 200-400 sheets made up of magical e-ink so I can have a physical map of the book I am reading.

The value provided by a physical map of a book is knowing how far along you are in the book, yet that's also available in a visual form in an ebook as well. You can even riffle through pages on most e-readers as well, seeing a preview of the page as you move quickly forward or backwards.

Aside from weight, what value is the physical map really providing?

Re: E-books at local libraries: a fight between publishers and librarians

#56

Post by falcolas »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #31
dgacmu wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's entirely dependant upon volume. According to [0], the average US non-fiction book will sell under 3,000 copies in its lifetime. For the proceeds from that to pay the author, editor, and marketing... Well, that's not a lot of copies to amortize those salaries across. The numbers are obviously very different for a New York times best seller, where physical goods costs will represent a larger fraction of the cost.…

Coincidentally, it costs between $2000 and $4000 to print and market a book. So, what, say $1 per book pays for that. The rest pays the author. But wait! Authors only get a buck or two royalty per book. So why do they cost so much? Use your imagination.

Many authors also get paid ahead of time to write their book as well. So, a portion of that also goes towards managing the loan given to the author, and distributing the risk of any given book not living up to its sales expectations.

Re: E-books at local libraries: a fight between publishers and librarians

#57

Post by falcolas »

kozak wrote: post #3
ainiriand wrote: post #2

What is more important, culture or company profits?

For a company, it's obviously profits. Without them, the company will cease existing.

You are confusing profit with revenue. Without revenue, the company will disappear. A company with revenue to cover operating costs but no profits will survive, even thrive.

Re: E-books at local libraries: a fight between publishers and librarians

#58

Post by Kihashi »

tus88 wrote: post #20

I didn't know libraries lent ebooks. Seems kind of strange.

It's actually really great! I check out a book, click "send to kindle" and about 30 seconds later, it's on my kindle to read. 2-3 weeks later, it's automatically "returned" to the library and removed from my kindle.

Most libraries in the US use OverDrive for their eBook collections and lending.

https://www.overdrive.com/

Re: E-books at local libraries: a fight between publishers and librarians

#59

Post by ineptwriter »

meuk wrote: post #45
dgacmu wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's entirely dependant upon volume. According to [0], the average US non-fiction book will sell under 3,000 copies in its lifetime. For the proceeds from that to pay the author, editor, and marketing... Well, that's not a lot of copies to amortize those salaries across. The numbers are obviously very different for a New York times best seller, where physical goods costs will represent a larger fraction of the cost.…

You make a good point: There surely is a difference between someone like Donald Knuth writing a book that is relatively niche, and a best-seller. For one, I can imagine that a page of mathematics requires more expertise and time to write than a page of fiction. However, there are dozens of free e-books on the web, written by respectable and knowledgeable professors, and this tells me that the only real cost involved…

Reacting to this: "I can imagine that a page of mathematics requires more expertise and time to write than a page of fiction."

I cannot say exactly how much time it takes to write a page of math, but I do know that many underestimate the time it takes to write a page of fiction. Sure Dan Brown probably knocks out a page of pulpy prose in an hour. But that's not exactly equivalent to critical reviewed, prize winning, literature. Nor is it what most writers strive for. Many fiction writers have spent years writing their books, recieved graduate degrees (some that they paid for), stuck failed novels in drawers, produced multiple drafts, been rejected hundreds of times, etc. I.E. labored over each page and fought for each step. Beloved was Toni Morrison's 5th book, not published until she was 56. That's decades of work to get to that point. Try looking at any page of James Joyce Ulyssess. That book alone spawned the PhDs of hundreds (thousands?) of scholars in English departments across the world just to understand it. Math too takes this level of work, it's just that they're more equivalent than some think.

Except, even though many fiction writers labor over every word and punctuation mark, there are not the same institutions to support them as there are mathematicians. Want to pursue a career in math? - enroll in a fully funded PhD in Mathematics, hopefully get a post-doc, then a tenure track job, etc. Admittedly not all succeed on this route, and it's not easy, there are teaching and publication responsibilities, but it exists. For writing? You're on your own until you produce critically acclaimed works, generally two successful books, usually while pursuing separate careers. Then you can apply for tenure-track jobs. There's not the same caccoon to usher in writing talent. Even Dan Brown, whose prose I just bashed, spent 14 years as a songwriter and High School English teacher before the Da Vinci code (his fourth book) garnered attention.

So I'd disagree, many (most? - not sure) fiction takes significant expertise and time to produce, and usually without the support of academic institutions that budding math talent has.

Re: E-books at local libraries: a fight between publishers and librarians

#60

Post by fragmede »

Freak_NL wrote: post #24
tadzik_ wrote: post #8

> There’s a tension in e-book pricing generally between consumer expectations that a digital file will be less expensive than a physical copy and the reality that very little of the cost of making a book is tied up in the physical format There's more to this than the cost of making a book. As a consumer, a physical thing inherently has more value than a digital one because it keeps the value after I buy it. I can len…

People seem to instinctively feel that an e-book shouldn't cost as much as a real book. A paperback edition of a book often has multiple owners throughout its — sometimes considerable — lifespan. That's simply part of the deal, and it always has been. E-books lack the ability to share, sell, and pass it on. That's fine, but the market won't bear nearly the same price as a paper book that can do all those things. An e…

Video piracy's gone down specifically due to Netflix. As each brand stops allowing Neflix to host their content, and as long as income remains to flat for a large portion of America, I'm expecting video piracy to make a comeback as soon as people remember it exists. Subscribing to HBO, CBS, Disney, and whoever else, on top of Netflix, will soon become cost prohibitive. Doing without isn't a consideration, so illegal alternatives will thrive. (Not that they haven't been, but Netflix was sufficiently convenient that most people didn't bother.)
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