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Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

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Re: Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

#181

Post by SamReidHughes »

jacquesm wrote: post #113
busterarm wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The company wants the union organizers to vote. It has said as much. The union organizers don't want a vote, they want Kickstarter to voluntarily recognize them. This is in the articles, man...

That still does not give the company the right to fire them, which is the law man... And the company could recognize the union if it wanted. So a vote is not mandatory. Note the subject of the post: "Kickstarter employees fired for trying to unionize". That's either true or it is not and so far you have not brought anything to the table that suggests it isn't retaliation for exactly that, and in fact substantiated nu…

They aren’t independent samples though. They could all have gone on a downward spiral of disgruntlement at around the same time (on the order of months), and then once management finally got around to doing something about it, they started the termination processes at the same time (on the order of days).

Re: Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

#182

Post by freeone3000 »

chroma wrote: post #123
freeone3000 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nestlé straight up murdered a worker for unionizing, but sure, the problem is that the flagrant lawbreaking is not representative of corporate conduct, because only unpopular laws are publically broken.

I don't understand what you're getting at. Do you think I want union organizers to be fired from their jobs or murdered? I was simply pointing out that your argument is a cheap dig that could also be applied to pot smokers and MLK. People who disagree with you will see it as such and remain unconvinced by your arguments. If you want to convince people, you have to figure out what would change their minds, not just he…

Maybe by presenting examples of hidden and public corporate disregard for law in their pursuit of profit. If you don't like the idea of a law as an absolute, maybe the same examples, framed as being against the public good. I want sunion organizers negotiated with, not fired OR murdered. If you're willing to overlook hidden events as "improbable" and public events as "not that bad" I don't really know what would convince such a person.

Re: Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

#183

Post by jkestner »

kmjg88nvf8 wrote: post #121
Animats wrote: post #16

Don't be a scab! Don't put your project on Kickstarter! Don't contribute to Kickstarters!

I'm not a fan of unions. I think I'll rather check out Kickstarter for some things to fund.

And you’ve got time this weekend to do so thanks to unions.

Re: Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

#184

Post by scarmig »

aksss wrote: post #176
scarmig wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've known several people at different companies who departed because of performance reasons. Every one of them got a PIP. The PIP was pretty much always pro forma, but I've never heard of a company letting someone go without a PIP, unless there's active malfeasance involved. Rookie move on Kickstarter's part, regardless. Even if Redwine had basically decided to stop working, it's probably less costly in reputational…

It just depends on the severity of the problem. Some problems can be fixed (PIP), while others don’t warrant the attempt - just use your imagination. If employer is an at-will, they certainly have more flexibility to fire quickly. They may increase the odds of a wrongful termination suit by doing this, but that’s what insurance is for. Nobody wants to pay a wrongful term suit though, and usually a company dousing an…

My experience with PIPs is that they're essentially an advance notice that you're getting fired and a grace period while you finish up outstanding projects and look for another job.

There's a lot of flexibility with at will employers, but even for clear firings with just cause, it's often less risky to eat the cost of that grace period. Aside from the risk of (frivolous) legal costs, there are reputational and morale risks from departures that aren't adequately "managed." No one is ever walked into an office and fired on a Friday morning for performance reasons without lots of warnings, including a PIP.

Re: Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

#185

Post by jkestner »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #144
jacquesm wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why is collective bargaining any more useful and individual bargaining Because collective bargaining means that the party with the largest resources and the power, in this case the company, will have to at least take into account their ability to operate. > Collective bargaining gives employees leverage over employers by drastically reducing the supply of labor available to the company if their bargains are not met…

> Note that such niceties as workplace safety; medical coverage and 5 day workweeks were in large part due to union involvement. Those things always get brought up but that's history from 50-75+ years ago. Got any more recent examples?

Might have something to do with the weakening of unions ever since. You might consider the flip side—what has not having strong unions gotten us? Greater inequality? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_labor_law#/med...

Re: Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

#186

Post by koonsolo »

dehrmann wrote: post #146
SamReidHughes wrote: post #3

Well that is gangsta. It's an unlikely coincidence that these three people had poor performance with such timing that led to firing in the same week or two. You gotta space out the firings to give the cover story more plausibility.

Critics of unions would point out that under-performing employees are more likely to benefit from unions, so they're more likely to try to organize them. I have no idea if this is actually the case. It certainly makes it hard to sort out what's actually going on, here.

I remember a story my father told me when he started working (in Belgium). It was a bit before 9am, and everyone was standing in front of their workbench. My dad, a farmers son, thought it was weird and started working on his task. A colleague came up to him and said "we only start working at 9". Since then he, like all the others, stood there doing nothing until it was 9 o'clock.

Unions have a "us vs them" mentality, where the boss tries to pay you as little and try to get as much work out of you, and you do the least amount of work for the most pay.

I myself like to see a cooperation more as a win-win situation, where you do something for me and I for you. The more we do for each other, the better for both of us.

Re: Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

#188

Post by kmjg88nvf8 »

jkestner wrote: post #183
kmjg88nvf8 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a fan of unions. I think I'll rather check out Kickstarter for some things to fund.

And you’ve got time this weekend to do so thanks to unions.

Bullshit. Having valuable skills or something to sell that people want is what gives people freedoms and a good negotiation position. Not unions.

If you want higher wages and more holidays, create more demand for workers, by creating jobs. That's the proper way to do it. Unions only benefit some workers at the expense of others - the ones who don't get a job because of minimum wages or because of bankrupt companies don't benefit from unions anymore.

Re: Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

#189

Post by kmjg88nvf8 »

jacquesm wrote: post #119
kmjg88nvf8 wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they were trying to unionize to prevent being fired, as they already knew their performance was lacking?

After 8 years and counting for at least one of the three? If your performance is lacking you won't get around to unionizing because your co-workers will see through that ruse in a heartbeat. According to one - insider informed - commenter here about 20% of the company was in favor, not enough to put it to a vote but apparently enough of a reason to ask the company to recognize the union voluntarily. So this was not j…

Why did they want to form a union, after 8 years?

I think some people will always be in favor of a union, no matter what. It's also an ideological thing.

Re: Kickstarter’s Year of Turmoil

#190

Post by mlrtime »

matchbok wrote: post #158
wernercd wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why don't American's like unions? Unions are a layer of bureaucracy, red tape and an entity that cares more about the Union than anything else. Add to that, as a conservative and right leaning individual, the last thing I want is be forced to donate to left leaning organizations that go against my best interests. Color it for what you will... I think there are cases where Unions do important things. But most of tho…

Well, great. Exactly 0 people are "forced" to pay into a union they don't want to be a part of! If you don't want a union job the solution is simple: don't take that job. But I guess the numerous benefits you enjoy today because of unions don't matter all.

Not true

https://www.nrtw.org/required-join-pay-private/

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