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Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

arstechnica.com

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Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#31

Post by LeonM »

C1sc0cat wrote: post #28
LeonM wrote: post #6

I think this is a result of automotive technical progress slowing down. And I don't mean that in a bad way. For the past 100 years, we have been developing better and better cars, with both breakthroughs and incremental improvements in the drivetrain, safety, comfort, reliability, etc. Now though, cars are consolidating. Most car companies only have a handful of 'platforms' on which they build various models. For exa…

Volvo appear to have 3 main engines and multiple versions of the same engine. And I suspect that some ICE engines in use are still variants of pre war designs the Chevy Small Block v8 is a little newer starting mid 1950's

Yes, you are right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Volvo_engines

I thought they only produced the 2.0L 4 cylinder petrol in various configurations (turbo size, hybrid, non-hybrid). As it turns out they now also have a 3 cylinder engine.

Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#32

Post by HNLurker2 »

codeulike wrote: post #11
LeonM wrote: post #6

I think this is a result of automotive technical progress slowing down. And I don't mean that in a bad way. For the past 100 years, we have been developing better and better cars, with both breakthroughs and incremental improvements in the drivetrain, safety, comfort, reliability, etc. Now though, cars are consolidating. Most car companies only have a handful of 'platforms' on which they build various models. For exa…

I think you're mixing up ICE and electric, which is a mistake. You might have a point about ICE, but there's a ton of hardware improvements to come for EVs. >Most car companies only have a handful of 'platforms' on which they build various models. Yeah and VW just spent years creating a completely new platform for EVs. Everyone else is going to need to do that in the next decade or so as well. > [Teslas] electric dri…

>Alongside that, they do try and find software fixes to improve the existing fleet,

I would be scared if a software engineer would make the OS to confirm that I want to brake

Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#33

Post by hobofan »

codeulike wrote: post #16
hobofan wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of engineers working at Facebook is in the same ballpark and they have a few billion users. At the same time the number of car platforms is increasingly consolidated and in complete control of the manufacturers. > And these users are, you know, driving cars around, so its kindof important to get the software right. That's not something you achieve by throwing more engineers at the problem.

No one said they were all engineers.

> So 10,000 coders

You did. Sure "coder" != "engineer", though that's the closest job title that companies are using.

Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#34

Post by virtualritz »

yitchelle wrote: post #21
qaq wrote: post #2

10,000 people that sounds like an overkill

This sounds like an underestimation to me. An ECU in car can consume up a team of 200 to 250 engineering resource. This only for those working directly on the ECUs. Add to it the secondary functions, the numbers will explode.

I worked on the infotainment part of recently released top brand car's software. The number of engineers on that was flabbergasting. Way higher than your number.

But the reason was not that it was needed.

The reasons were:

- The approach to developing software (pure waterfall, with lots of agile BS bingo terms as seasoning). As someone else mentioned: Old car companies do not understand software. I may add: At all.

- Upper management throwing more resources at missed deadlines (that were moving all the time anyway). Every seasoned developer knows that more developers will slow you down. Nine women can't have a baby in one month.

- Trying to understand the issues with the project getting pear shaped by looking at burn down charts.

Once I was on a way to one of these meetings in an elevator and someone said: "Gentlemen, are you also on going to our weekly 'Men who stare at graphs' ritual?"

Most senior engineering folks agreed that the work hundreds of developers, dozens of engineering managers, PMs, POs, agile coaches and god-knows-what-other-fancy-title people were doing could be done by a team of around 25.

I completely agree and as such parent is right. 5k-10k people is complete overkill. But then -- given how these companies work -- it is not. It is indeed an underestimation and the very reason this will go nowhere. A few cars will be released with this OS and then it will be replaced by something much better that someone else, not an old car company, was doing in the meantime.

Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#35

Post by zaroth »

LeonM wrote: post #6

I think this is a result of automotive technical progress slowing down. And I don't mean that in a bad way. For the past 100 years, we have been developing better and better cars, with both breakthroughs and incremental improvements in the drivetrain, safety, comfort, reliability, etc. Now though, cars are consolidating. Most car companies only have a handful of 'platforms' on which they build various models. For exa…

This is wrong every time anyone has ever tried to claim it throughout human history for any piece of technology, so much so, that there must be a name for it.

Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#36

Post by krn »

An Android-based infotainment system developed in collaboration with Google has already been announced and demonstrated in 2020 Polestar 2 EV, Volvo's alternative to Tesla Model 3, which might have inspired this "Volkswagen's bold plan"[1]. I have nothing against it, if the update policy would be similar to Android One's. Otherwise, it can easily become a security nightmare. Imagine, if your 5-year-old Audi car was as secure as your 5-year-old Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjeNoPJ25Jc&t=5m28s

Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#38

Post by Onanymous »

vgoh1 wrote: post #23
Etheryte wrote: post #7

The key takeaway for me here is that they want to build an Android-based OS that will run both user applications and, say, your traction control on the same stack. Given the very mixed history of Android security, updates, and more, I simply can't see how this would end well.

The article must be misleading. Android would never have the latency or reliability to run things like traction control and fuel management. The engineers at auto companies are well aware of this, but perhaps the author of the article is not.

Engineers might well be aware but not the managers who make decisions

Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#39

Post by gtirloni »

virtualritz wrote: post #34
yitchelle wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like an underestimation to me. An ECU in car can consume up a team of 200 to 250 engineering resource. This only for those working directly on the ECUs. Add to it the secondary functions, the numbers will explode.

I worked on the infotainment part of recently released top brand car's software. The number of engineers on that was flabbergasting. Way higher than your number. But the reason was not that it was needed. The reasons were: - The approach to developing software (pure waterfall, with lots of agile BS bingo terms as seasoning). As someone else mentioned: Old car companies do not understand software. I may add: At all. -…

I wish they would stick to traditional waterfall development, even NASA-style if they could afford it, for something as critical as a vehicle OS.

Re: Volkswagen’s plan to create a new car operating system

#40

Post by codeulike »

HNLurker2 wrote: post #32
codeulike wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're mixing up ICE and electric, which is a mistake. You might have a point about ICE, but there's a ton of hardware improvements to come for EVs. >Most car companies only have a handful of 'platforms' on which they build various models. Yeah and VW just spent years creating a completely new platform for EVs. Everyone else is going to need to do that in the next decade or so as well. > [Teslas] electric dri…

>Alongside that, they do try and find software fixes to improve the existing fleet, I would be scared if a software engineer would make the OS to confirm that I want to brake

Brakes and steering remain mechanical

edit: mainly I was thinking of Tesla here. obv there are exceptions

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