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A Game That Made Rats Jump for Joy

theatlantic.com

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Re: A Game That Made Rats Jump for Joy

#21

Post by tombert »

I think I'm even more impressed that someone could touch a rat without jumping backward, scared out of their mind like a child. Maybe that's just me :).

Tests like this make me wonder about the ethics of being able to perform experiments and tests on rats; clearly these creatures are smart enough to understand a fairly complex game like hide and seek; at what level do we, as a society, determine that this animal is too self-aware to be experimented on, and that doing so would be an act of cruelty.

Note: Obviously I don't think it's an act of cruelty play hide and seek with a rat; I'm talking about testing food additives and whatnot for cancer.

Re: A Game That Made Rats Jump for Joy

#22

Post by changoplatanero »

I taught our dog to play hide and seek. For the seeking part, I make him sit in the kitchen and wait while I hide with his toy. Then I yell his name and he has to come find me. For the hiding part, he will take his toy and hide it somewhere like under a couch cushion or under a bedsheet. Then he comes and finds me to go looking for it. If I get too close to finding it then he jumps in and snatches it.

Re: A Game That Made Rats Jump for Joy

#23

Post by dkersten »

tombert wrote: post #21

I think I'm even more impressed that someone could touch a rat without jumping backward, scared out of their mind like a child. Maybe that's just me :). Tests like this make me wonder about the ethics of being able to perform experiments and tests on rats; clearly these creatures are smart enough to understand a fairly complex game like hide and seek; at what level do we, as a society, determine that this animal is t…

> I think I'm even more impressed that someone could touch a rat without jumping backward, scared out of their mind like a child. Maybe that's just me :).

I think rats get a bad rep (well, sure, wild ones are disease carriers!). About ten years ago, a housemate of mine had a pet rat (and another friend of mine still has rats, but I’ve never lived with him) and I learned first hand that rats are wonderful creatures: very intelligent, interesting, curious and mischievous. This rat used to collect things and bring them back to his cage (usually crumpled up paper we’d scatter around the room for him, but the funniest was when he stole my housemate’s keys). They’re also incredibly cute.. except for that horrible tail ;-)

If I didn’t have a cat, I would consider a pet rat.

Re: A Game That Made Rats Jump for Joy

#24

Post by dkersten »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #6
namanyayg wrote: post #2

> How does the animal decide where it wants to seek, or whether it wants to hide? Or what happens when it’s surprised? When it thinks it knows where the experimenter is, what happens in its brain when she isn’t there? These questions at the end really made me a whole lot more interested in this topic. And it's interesting to note that she's awarding them with tickles, not food. Could it be why the rats found it to be…

It's hard to tell if there is a clear distinction between social/"fun" and food rewards. Experiments have shown an "anti-freeloading" effect in most species, except cats: Within reason, a reward for work is preferable over the same reward for no work. I also don't think cats care specifically whether or not their fun and playing leads to food or not. It just happens that their idea of fun would lead to discovering an…

> Maybe they hunt because it's fun, not just because they are hungry.

My well-fed cat spends most of her time indoors but is allowed out. She doesn’t bring back creatures very often, but a few months back, at the start of summer, one night she killed and brought back (through an open window) three rodents in one night. Each time, she left them in the hallway, came up to the bedroom and meowed until I woke up. Then she lead me to the kill, made absolutely sure I saw it and then left it there, seemingly losing interest. She did it three times that night until I finally just closed the window.

This is a well fed cat and she didn’t attempt to eat her kills; she did not do it for food.

In my experience with cats, they also like to hunt flies, bottle caps, feet, their own tails, leaves blowing in the wind... etc. I think they’re just hard wired to enjoy hunting “things”.

Re: A Game That Made Rats Jump for Joy

#25

Post by paganel »

I play hide and seek with my cat and he definitely loves it. He also likes to fetch the rubber balls we have around the house (some of them still hidden in places we don’t know a thing about). Playing with animals is pretty great.

Re: A Game That Made Rats Jump for Joy

#26

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

dkersten wrote: post #24
bayesian_horse wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to tell if there is a clear distinction between social/"fun" and food rewards. Experiments have shown an "anti-freeloading" effect in most species, except cats: Within reason, a reward for work is preferable over the same reward for no work. I also don't think cats care specifically whether or not their fun and playing leads to food or not. It just happens that their idea of fun would lead to discovering an…

> Maybe they hunt because it's fun, not just because they are hungry. My well-fed cat spends most of her time indoors but is allowed out. She doesn’t bring back creatures very often, but a few months back, at the start of summer, one night she killed and brought back (through an open window) three rodents in one night. Each time, she left them in the hallway, came up to the bedroom and meowed until I woke up. Then sh…

There's a theory that when cats do this they're bringing you food - either to say thank you for feeding them, or because they think you're a big dumb hairless cat who hasn't worked out how to hunt.

It's impossible to know for sure without asking the cat, and the cat isn't telling.

Cats do enjoy chasing and pawing at things - or at least, they're hardwired to chase and paw at things, which is not quite the same. At the very least it seems to scratch an emotional itch for a while.

It's understood in Africa that if you're stalked by a lion, you should either face it and run towards it, or make loud noises to try to scare it away, or maybe both - because if you try to run away, its stalking instinct is triggered and you'll be on the menu.

Cats are complicated, and learning how to communicate with a cat is like learning a non-verbal language. It took us a long time to stop misinterpreting our cat, and it took our cat a while to work out how to communicate more clearly. It's still a work in progress, and surprises continue to happen.

Re: A Game That Made Rats Jump for Joy

#27

Post by xenospn »

changoplatanero wrote: post #22

I taught our dog to play hide and seek. For the seeking part, I make him sit in the kitchen and wait while I hide with his toy. Then I yell his name and he has to come find me. For the hiding part, he will take his toy and hide it somewhere like under a couch cushion or under a bedsheet. Then he comes and finds me to go looking for it. If I get too close to finding it then he jumps in and snatches it.

My dog absolutely loves searching for treats. It's his favorite past time, and you can see how excited he gets.
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