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France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

reuters.com

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Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#721

Post by towaway60 »

blackbrokkoli wrote: post #225

I'm of course not familiar with the specific mindsets and the history of this decision, but I want to share a bit of cultural perspective from Germany that is so far not really considered in this comment section: Germany is very, very keen on preventing powerful entities from acting outside of regulation and similarly, if not more, on preventing a single entity to get in control of everything. This is largely due to…

Facebook is the last company I would trust with my money. The amount of shady stuff they did is just alarming.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#722

Post by Bombthecat »

Zak wrote: post #572
WhoBeI wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was hoping this would happen. It will probably become a EU thing now. The idea of a privately controlled currency needs to die quickly. Never been a fan of crypto currency in general but Bitcoin, and the like, are accepted because they are not centralized. Your Bitcoin won't change in value or disappear because your country and another get in a fight.

I'm quite fond of the idea of a decentralized currency that nobody has the ability to actively control becoming popular. That would act as a hedge against abuse of power by both governments and corporations. A currency used worldwide, controlled by a corporation, and under the influence of the US government would be the exact opposite, and is not a thing I want to see succeed.

But it would certainly.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#723

Post by mrb »

javert wrote: post #228
mrb wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

« Yeah, very confusing statement - would they use this same logic to ban Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies? » No, and that's the great point everyone is missing. Paraphrasing their logic: "it is inherent to the sovereignty of nations that no private entity can claim monetary power". In other words, they don't want private entities to control monetary power, but they tolerate this power being in the hands of "public"…

If "monetary power" is "inherent to the sovereignty of nations" (quoting the article), they're also against bitcoin. I doubt the use of the words "private entity" was specifically intended to exclude decentralized currencies. It probably actually means "anyone who is not us."

No, read very carefully the way they worded the sentence. What is "inherent to the sovereignty of nations" is not "monetary power" but "no private entities having control of monetary power".

They are not saying governments should have control of this power. They are just saying no private entities should have control.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#724

Post by scoobyyabbadoo »

withoutboats wrote: post #700
scoobyyabbadoo wrote: post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it is very peculiar how the British elites was able to establish the Mandate for Palestine to give Jewish people their own state but haven't been able to establish something giving British people their own state even after it was explicitly requested.

Mods: This user's posting history makes clear they are an anti-Semitic conspiracy theorist. Why have you not banned them? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20972062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20918028

Please assume good faith and discuss the topics directly. What is it that you find debatable about my comment? I've always made good faith efforts at productive conversation whether someone agrees or disagrees with me on something

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#725

Post by padiyar83 »

I will show this comment to my grand kids one day - Do whatever you can, think whatever you like - By the end of this decade, we will have at least half a dozen such currencies with a couple of them in active circulation. Whether Facebook succeeds or fails - they have covered so much ground in pushing existing establishment on value of an universal currency, offered by firms that provide services directly to customers - that it now becomes hard to ignore.

Crypto currencies such as Ethereum and Bitcoin will ride on the coat tails of these currencies to be truly first class citizens of the banking world.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#726

Post by ismail »

denton-scratch wrote: post #702
ismail wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not op but will take a stab. The comment was in response to: “This is hyperbole at best. Facebook does not have an army” Op was pointing out that power != war with guns “Facebook is the most powerful private entity on the earth right now” The comment was how power could be achieved via other methods of warfare-including the ability to shape conversations. Another word for this would be competition. He has a point.

Negative, Spock. The ability to shape conversations or to compete is not the same as making war (or you are relying on an idiosyncratic definition of "war").

It seems we are splitting hairs here on the definition of "war" and missing the actual message. Since you brought it up again.

War (Noun) " - a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism

  - a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end 

  - a struggle to achieve a goal:
"

War (Verb): " - to be in active or vigorous conflict

- to carry on active hostility or contention

"

The point still stands. War is an isomorphism for competition, conflict and tension between parties. One could probably use something like category theory and prove it.

References:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/war

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/war

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#727

Post by auslander »

surfsvammel wrote: post #716
auslander wrote: post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dollar or not is not that important. Forcing US intermediary is.

There is no forced US intermediaries. What are you referring to?

"U.S. control over transactions within the EU.

..The transaction was automatically routed through the US, possibly because of the USD currency used in the transaction, which is how the United States was able to seize the funds.." [0]

Also: "The U.S. Office of Foreign Asset Control (OFAC) enforces U.S. economic sanctions programs ... and any person or entity physically located in the United States (including branches of foreign corporations)" [2]. And most foreign banks do have US branches. And if transaction is in US Dollars, OFAC applies too [1]. I can dig deeper, down the rabbit hole :)

All right. Seems like if a transaction involves USD, it must pass US based correspondent bank.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_for_Worldwide_Interban...

[1] https://nacm.org/pdfs/webinars/FCIBWebinar_Compliance_OFAC_U...

[2] https://www.riskscreen.com/kyc360/of-counsel/ofac-compliance...

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#728

Post by K0SM0S »

bko wrote: post #429
oblio wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming those people are not forced, tricked or otherwise persuaded by a company worth hundreds of billions of dollars, to use Libra. And that company has every incentive to do what I listed above. It also has very shady morals, as proven repeatedly. Yes, it's a small individual loss (not being to invest in Libra) but probably a big collective gain.

> You're assuming those people are not forced, tricked or otherwise persuaded by a company worth hundreds of billions of dollars, to use Libra Anybody who creates a product tries to persuade people to use their product. You can be a cynic and just attribute ill intent of basically everything but it's not really productive Facebook doesn't control Libra. They have a non-controlling stake in the Libra Foundation, a non…

Minor technical remarks:

1. Since when is a currency a "product"? Did I miss a macroeconomics memo? — This statement is antithetic to the structure of modern economies, or to Facebook's claims about Libra for that matter.

2. As for cynicism, if you look at Facebook's history and mindset, their decisions and policy... I feel like "cynicism" qualifies as an appropriate response. — for reference: an inclination to believe that people are motivated purely by self-interest; skepticism.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#729

Post by erikpukinskis »

gjulianm wrote: post #440
kortilla wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won’t. Germany already doesn’t have control of the monetary policy for the currency it uses (the Euro). Monetary policy != taxation.

It has control as Germany is part of the Eurozone, the ECB is subjected to the EU treaty, operating under its guidelines, and is accountable to the European Parliament, in which the people of Germany have a say. Maybe it is not as accountable as we wish it were, but it is far from what Facebook would be.

Is “a vote in” and “control” really the same thing?

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#730

Post by erikpukinskis »

insulanus wrote: post #635
AdrianB1 wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See Montenegro, the country that has no own currency, but uses Euro: they have no particular problems because of this.

Montenegro has a population of about 600K. Its annual GDP is $12 billion. There are also small countries that are pegged to the US dollar. When you are a small-potatoes nation-state, and have a non-diversified or small economy, it is a great idea to use a larger, better established, currency. * It's more stable * Trade is easier * More than 3 banks accept your currency! The incentives of the nations controlling the e…

I don’t think you are tied to FB’s TOS. Nor their fate. If FB went bankrupt, Libra would still operate?

Not sure what you’re trying to get at.

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