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Age Discrimination at Work

nytimes.com

191–200 of 206 posts

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a middle age female software developer and also found similar experience when I was in the job market recently. The software development positions generally are below 2 years, under 5 years and the senior position at 6-8 years. What do you do if you have 20 years of software development experience?

Recently worked for a (bad) silicon valley YC company, and was shocked to learn that 6-8 years of experience is considered senior these days. Not enough experience at that point to really be senior, but I think there's such a desperate need for developers that they have to do that. To be clear, I've certainly met people in their 20s that have senior-level ability, but they are by far the exception.

IIRC for those that make senior, five years to senior is about average at Google.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the United States, literally nobody should be asking your age during a job interview.

In the UK (and I suspect all of the EU?) it’s specifically illegal to discriminate on age ( https://www.gov.uk/employer-preventing-discrimination ), and when I was last interviewing there HR would remove any birthdates that came in on CVs before passing them over to the interviewers.

It's illegal, but also hard to prove. Even without birth dates, you can make a reasonable estimate based on work experience and graduation date. And when the candidate turns out to be a bit grayer than you expected, that can, even subconsciously, affect your decision.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#193

I've effectively "fixed" a couple startups built by fresh college grads and interns and made a pretty penny doing it. I think some companies and some founders have thought engineering was an area where they could cut corners by not hiring experienced people, and they have learned this is a good way to fail. That being said, you want a mix - more seasoned people leading the direction, processes, and technology selecti…

This is actually an example of age discrimination. Young people can be in leadership too. I always see conversations about ageism in tech drift towards older workers but as someone who was precocious I was often denied opportunities I was ready for because I didn’t have “enough experience”.

I should add generally here - you'll have younger people who exceed their years and older people with more enthusiasm and energy than the former.

Experience is really about making mistakes and learning from them and that takes time - there's really no substitute. People who are ahead of their years usually started earlier and worked harder at it.

So the problems I see are a team that's all one or the other and generally that's not good -- it's impossible to find a group of 10 new-grad engineers who all over-perform their age by 10 years.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#194
My life was destroyed due to age discrimination. Even with a masters degree and a CS degree I was pushed into homelessness and had to beg for food for nearly a year.

In order to escape my situation, I removed 19 years of work experience and joined a boot camp where 90% of the things that were explained were already known to me.

Last year a fresh hire (white male graduated from a second-tier US college) was making 50% more than all of us (mostly brown men in their 30s and 40s), not in the same position but at a lower one. Most of my co-workers are on H1b visas so they get underpaid that way. The other trick they use is to hire you as a contractor. All of this is happening at an Indian/American outsourcing firm which is where most of this stuff happens on a regular basis - at the bottom of the industry.

After 1000 applications I gave up trying to find a managerial role (with 10 years of managerial experience abroad, plus a top 10 MBA). I was passed on by companies who hired the younger mba candidates (I was 35 at the time). I went back to my country, got a green card, moved back to America and spent months trying to find a position. I settled for a position doing something that I used in my 20s.

For a lot of people, age discrimination is just a fairy tale. But the reality is very clear: millions of Americans are overqualified for their jobs (See this article by USA Today https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/01/27/study-...), millions more have left the IT industry, and millions more have lost their jobs due to outsourcing or younger hires. A large percentage of people in hiring positions see employees as cattle - hence they go for the younger ones. Experience is not quantifiable, and especially not by the laughable tests that companies use nowadays for recruitment.

My life was hard, I lived in the trains of Manhattan. I lined of for food in soup kitchens for nearly two years. To get out of my situation, I worked four odd jobs simultaneously. After the biggest suffering of my life only one thing pulled me out: I took 20 years out of my resume. I deleted awards, titles, certifications, international experience, newspaper articles, publications, you name it.

Today, the job market is very clear to me. Companies are trying to compete and will hire the best candidate they can find. But, as you age life gets more and more complicated and you might fail to land a good job. Maybe you are an immigrant and your English pronunciation is lacking, maybe you are not willing to pull all nighters, or maybe you are not as good with newer technologies. Maybe one of those things is at play, but what happens when you are hired, get the highest performance review (above all your coworkers), see the young college grad fired after only two months and reflect back on your situation?

At that point, like I did, you start to think about whether age discrimination is real. For me, it is.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#195
post #3

I was applying to a job with a large game studio. The interview was going pretty well, I'd thought. We talked a bit about how we'd implement certain gameplay elements, the content of the projects we've worked on, and overall it just seemed good and we all seemed to get along pretty well. Then they asked me how old I was. Their response to my age was, "Oh... maybe it's a little late then. You're not too old, but... ki…

In all fairness, are you sure there was no playful sarcasm behind that?

Even if it is sarcasm, it’s still illegal

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#197
post #3

I was applying to a job with a large game studio. The interview was going pretty well, I'd thought. We talked a bit about how we'd implement certain gameplay elements, the content of the projects we've worked on, and overall it just seemed good and we all seemed to get along pretty well. Then they asked me how old I was. Their response to my age was, "Oh... maybe it's a little late then. You're not too old, but... ki…

Your age was not the real reason.

I think it was since after changing it I got the job.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#198
Age is just a heuristic. It's not an age gap, it's a culture gap.

Expectations of one's job are vastly different (fulfill all of my personal needs versus provide financial stability to support my personal life; work-life blend versus work-life balance).

Ethics are different (Adderall will get me through crunch time versus ugh! crunch time!; give me little projects like I had in college versus give me an area of responsibility and a mandate).

Standards are different (this project will be dead/replaced in a year, or I'll be at a new gig, so building quality is a waste versus always build quality, the definition of which I've determined based on decades of experience).

There's a gap of political perspective as well (boomers and, to an extent, Gen-Xers screwed up the world versus inheriting the established business/social order was generally accepted).

Easiest to understand is a vast difference in language and cultural reference points - not as different as an ESL candidate but on that same spectrum.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#199
post #98
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We all know it's like having 2 jobs. But having kids is a choice. Don't do it if you can't pay for it or you have to keep leaning on colleagues to cover for you. As for the prospects of other people's kids paying for my retirement, that seems very low probability given the projections for the future of social security. When planning for retirement you should assume you receive zero from social security.

Accepting to do the "difficult shift/all nighter/extra" is a choice too. Besides, not giving people with children an extra shift is morally right. A company should get extra workforce and also prioritize employee's and her family's well-being when dividing the work load.

How much of a choice depends on if you have management that thinks it's the right thing to do to impose upon the childless. If you disagree you are labeled not a team player and suffer the consequences.

So you get to hear about your coworker's day at the beach with their family while you had to work the weekend to finish up something they were supposed to do which required cancelling your date at the beach.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#200
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whenever topics like this come up on HN, there are always tons of people in their 30s and 40s posting comments like this, which boil down to something like: "I'm not old enough to experience age discrimination yet, and I'm scared but I'm going to keep up with the latest languages/frameworks so I will be special and not be discriminated against like all the other developers, who allowed their skills to deteriorate whe…

I'm 54. Have been in sw dev for 40 years. I have kept my skills (aws api / node.js / css / html5 / etc) up to the point were I am over qualified for many of the positions (laid off 3 years back from IBM) I apply for. Before I updated my LinkedIn profile pic I received many interview invites. Now I get none. Recently I started looking at the people that these sw dev companies _actually_ hire. They ask for 3/5/10 years…

I had a very similar problem and ended up in the streets. The solution was to join a bootcamp, cut things from the resume and get a junior job. From here, you can leverage new connections to get a better job or a promotion.

Joining a bootcamp makes it look like you are new to the field and will settle for an entry-level salary. This is a very extreme solution, but might help you solve this problem for several years.

I feel bad for saying this, but my advice is to dye your hair, join a gym and take some years of your Facebook profile.

Try to save some money to buy a car to do Uber, start a small IT consulting firm or get a job teaching. Most people will advice mild patches but they dont know what it's like to run out of money. I feel your pain.

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