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France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

reuters.com

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Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#411

Post by tzm »

lacker wrote: post #377
blackbrokkoli wrote: post #225

I'm of course not familiar with the specific mindsets and the history of this decision, but I want to share a bit of cultural perspective from Germany that is so far not really considered in this comment section: Germany is very, very keen on preventing powerful entities from acting outside of regulation and similarly, if not more, on preventing a single entity to get in control of everything. This is largely due to…

The strange part to me is just that there are already hundreds of crypto currencies available in Germany. When the government says that yes, these hundreds of currencies are fine, but Facebook can’t create one, then it just seems like the policy is anti-Facebook for the sake of being anti-Facebook.

> already hundreds of crypto currencies available in Germany

How many cypto providers have > 2 billion users? FB should be regulated.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#412

Post by freeflight »

arethuza wrote: post #295
stkdump wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Germany is deconstructing itself by [...] ignoring millenium problems in governance, such as unchecked mass migration. What are you talking about? Germany is 25% immigrants, the US is close to 100% immigrants.

14.8% seems to be the real figure for Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Germany

That's not "the real figure", that's a UN estimate.

If you want the real figures you need to ask the German Statistische Bundesamt. Which put the number at 22,5% in 2016 [0], at 23,4% in 2017 [1] and at 25,5% in 2018 [2].

Keep in mind that those numbers are averages for the whole country and thus can be very misleading in their individual effects on each region. Because a whole lot of regions that previously had barely people with a migration background, at least from the MENA regions, have now seen a surge of MENA refugees.

This has visibly changed the landscape in some cities in the East, in the West not so much because Western Germany already had a lot of Muslim migration for decades, tracing back to literally mail ordering Turkish guest workers from Istanbul. That's why in many bigger Western cities you will find very "diverse" districts often referred to as "little Istanbuls" and Döner shops are abundant everywhere.

Thus in West Germany MENA refugees usually have an easier time integrating and finding contact trough the established Muslim sub-culture there.

The same does not hold true for East Germany, it doesn't have such a history of Muslim immigration, what is there in migration background is mostly from Eastern Europe, a bit of Vietnamese, due to the GDR times. But what the East did and still does have: Lot's of cheap and affordable housing, room for the federal government to cheaply "store" migrants.

By now many Eastern German cities kinda look like their Western counterparts but in a way sinister way: Large groups of young men just hanging out around the Plattenbauten they were put in, with everything from families to pensioners living right next to them, and yes crimes have increased because those guys also can't work (wouldn't want to steal a German the job), so they have nothing to do but hang out and get bad ideas.

[0] https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/zeitgeschehen/2017-08/stati...

[1] https://www.zeit.de/gesellschaft/2018-08/migration-deutschla...

[2] https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article198890559/Sta...

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#413

Post by kortilla »

qubex wrote: post #378
Hermel wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a very typical German mindset. You implicitly assume that nothing good can come out of Libra so it should be banned from the beginning. The pragmatic approach is to wait and see what happens. Most likely, it won’t be as successful as you assume it will be. Also, there are plenty of other forms of private money out there that you don’t seem to have a problem with (e.g. credit cards), as well as foreign currenci…

If they just took the “wait and see” approach and some fraction of the population took it up, they’d find themselves fighting against a group of citizens with vested interests, and the corporations would say “you can’t take this away from these people” much like the gun lobby does in the USA. The real “wait and see” approach is to prevent it get a foot in the door, see what happens elsewhere, and then perhaps repeal…

A classic reactionary approach

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#414

Post by bko »

civicsquid wrote: post #402
lacker wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The strange part to me is just that there are already hundreds of crypto currencies available in Germany. When the government says that yes, these hundreds of currencies are fine, but Facebook can’t create one, then it just seems like the policy is anti-Facebook for the sake of being anti-Facebook.

I think it's more of an anti-tech mindset more than an anti-Facebook mindset. If Google did this, I imagine that Germany would be just as upset. If, for example, Goldman Sachs did the same thing, that might not go over smoothly, but I don't think it would see such a negative reaction. I'd assume that feels more in line with the status-quo, whereas tech companies getting involved in financial instruments is not as fam…

I think the way Facebook did this was the right way. It set up Libra as an independent non-profit and they have a non controlling share. The founding members include Stripe, Visa, Mastercard and PayPal.

All the media coverage on Libra is incredibly dishonest and ill-informed.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#415

Post by laingc »

Tomte wrote: post #360
wil421 wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is accepted everywhere. Not in my experience in the least bit. Germany was the only place that I’ve been where there were so many non-credit card restaurants etc. I was traveling for work in Bavaria and baden-württemberg. It was an issue and we had to make sure I selected the right place to use my work cc. I took some personal time in Munich and most of the places I went were cash only. 2 students, one from Finla…

Strange, I'm living in Germany, hailing from Baden-Württemberg and now been living in Northrhine-Westphalia for almost ten years, and I cannot remember a single restaurant that doesn't accept credit cards. And I'm paying almost everything with credit card. Sure, the ice cream stand at the swimming pool only accepts cash, as does the local discotheque, but restaurants? Never a problem.

As a foreigner who lived in Germany for several years until recently, my experience is also that cards were accepted at 50% of places at most - often with a minimum purchase, and usually no contactless.

By contrast, in New Zealand even most farmer’s market stalls and pop-up espresso carts presume that contactless will be the main means of payment.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#416

Post by AlexCoventry »

lacker wrote: post #377
blackbrokkoli wrote: post #225

I'm of course not familiar with the specific mindsets and the history of this decision, but I want to share a bit of cultural perspective from Germany that is so far not really considered in this comment section: Germany is very, very keen on preventing powerful entities from acting outside of regulation and similarly, if not more, on preventing a single entity to get in control of everything. This is largely due to…

The strange part to me is just that there are already hundreds of crypto currencies available in Germany. When the government says that yes, these hundreds of currencies are fine, but Facebook can’t create one, then it just seems like the policy is anti-Facebook for the sake of being anti-Facebook.

Ideologically, at least, extant cryptocurrencies aim to decentralize power, whereas the OP was saying that German resistance to Libra comes from a concern about the centralized power it might afford. That's not mere bigotry.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#417

Post by gjulianm »

justinzollars wrote: post #182
olivierduval wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure to be more comfortable to rely more on the interests of a private US company that has already been proven un-ethical several times than to trust an elected (so revokable) governement ;-) But in Europe, we have more trust in our own governement and less in corporation than in the US, where it seem to be the opposite

I would rephrase this to say, in America we have less trust in government and more trust in the individual. The distinction is this: No one is forcing anyone to use Libra its your choice. : )

> No one is forcing anyone to use Libra its your choice.

Don't be naive.

- In order to make a choice, you need to be properly informed. Now, most people won't have the time or interest to see what Libra is and what the consequences of widespread Libra adoption would be.

- Facebook can force a sector of their paying users (mainly advertisers) to use Libra.

- Facebook also has a lot of influence, most people use at least one of Facebook, Instagram or Whatsapp. Those apps can be used to advertise and push Libra.

- Once Libra adoption reaches a critical point, you'd need to use it because you need to buy things.

- You don't need to use it to suffer negative consequences due to a private foreign for-profit business controlling monetary policy.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#418

Post by oblio »

bko wrote: post #398
gzer0 wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in its essence, is fascism—ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or by any other controlling private power.

Giving people an option to invest in a basket of relatively safe investments and currencies is growth of private power that will lead to fascism?

You're assuming those people are not forced, tricked or otherwise persuaded by a company worth hundreds of billions of dollars, to use Libra. And that company has every incentive to do what I listed above. It also has very shady morals, as proven repeatedly.

Yes, it's a small individual loss (not being to invest in Libra) but probably a big collective gain.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#419

Post by dpau »

blackbrokkoli wrote: post #225

I'm of course not familiar with the specific mindsets and the history of this decision, but I want to share a bit of cultural perspective from Germany that is so far not really considered in this comment section: Germany is very, very keen on preventing powerful entities from acting outside of regulation and similarly, if not more, on preventing a single entity to get in control of everything. This is largely due to…

Last week I wanted to purchase a used item but discovered that, without warning or notification, Marketplace was deactivated from my Facebook account. My Facebook account is quite active, with posts, discussion in multiple groups, and hundreds of friends. I still have no clue as to what rule I triggered and no recourse to reactivate it. Now imagine that's my digital Libra bank account? No thanks.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#420

Post by freeflight »

majewsky wrote: post #380
freeflight wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on your bank, it's quite the opposite, particularly when you want to draw cash from an ATM. With a Girocard, you have to go to a specific brand of bank or hope they are in your "cash group" or else you will pay a hefty fee. But some banks offer to withdraw from any ATM using their VISA CC with no fees at all. For years I've been using this to get cash without much of a hassle and pay for stuff I'd otherwise…

That should be easy to figure out by looking whether the transaction shows up in the checking account or in the credit card account.

The money is taken from the CC account, so I guess that would make it a CC transaction when I draw money to pay in cash? That's kinda funny lol
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