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Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

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Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#171

Post by ghaff »

tfehring wrote: post #150
ghaff wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very optimistic view about how easy it is for the average engineer (many of whom are not even in software) to land a new job. Especially one that doesn't require them to move or otherwise make significant changes.

My comment referred to engineers at big tech companies, not the average engineer more generally. The job market is still really strong for engineers across the board, not just SWE. Experience at big tech companies still looks great on a resume, and those companies tend to be geographically concentrated in areas with lots of other tech companies. To be clear, those engineers' quality of life may be dependent on workin…

I agree with your basic point. I'm just saying you may overestimate the ease with which engineers, whether older ones, those in some more specialized area, etc, can leave one job and start another similarly compensated one (or even one at a lesser but still ballpark salary) in a couple weeks. Or indeed a job in their general area at all.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#172

Post by zanny »

cptroot wrote: post #78
mattmcknight wrote: post #44

The threats to democracy arguments are so overblown. We're about to have a huge election. There is no literal threat to democracy. Hmmm...it must be some kind of metaphor. So what do people mean when they say this? The NPR piece says Smith suggests "the Internet giants will cannibalize the very fabric of this country". This metaphor seems hyperbolic as well. To use "cannibalize" means that something will eat itself.…

You do realize one of the candidates in said election has repeatedly mused about how the election is rigged against him. He's even made (idle?) threats to not leave office if he loses.

Trump (and the presidency in general) is used as a distraction. Its also probably the only legitimate election that happens - its the only one that the candidates are thoroughly scrutinized by the voters and whose platforms, personalities, etc are laid bare in a way most people actually doing the voting are able to comprehend.

Senators and governors might be in a very distant second and third place for legitimate scrutiny by the electorate, house representatives in fourth, maybe in some very rare circumstances someone pays attention to state house or senate races, and maybe you care about your mayor once every other decade.

Every other race is simply pay to win. You pay the most, get the most ads in front of constituents faces, and get yourself political power for as long as you can afford to keep it. The voting public does not have the patience, time, or willpower to scrutinize a dozen+ races per election cycle in a way paramount to preserving the institutional integrity of the government. Its why people are always so pessimistic about government solving problems - they really aren't practically electing the people writing the laws or testing their legitimacy. You vote for judges on paper, but in aggregate the elected judge is almost always the one with the most donors.

Its all intentional and structural, of course. It helps preserves the two party duopoly and lowers the cost of buying legislation for private interests. If voters only had one person to elect whose job it then was to do all the other appointments and elections they would otherwise do, but whom the electorate scrutinizes as much as the president and whose conduct is all over their personal media feeds every day, we might actually have something reminiscent of the will of the people showing up in government again.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#173

Post by eropple »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #164
navigatesol wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Now every engineer is personally responsible for corporate decisions. This is the entire point. If the "corporate decision" involves doing bad things, and then you go ahead and implement those bad things as an engineer...you deserve to be held responsible for your part in it.

Because making the crowbar is part of the crime? No, I don't think that makes a lot of sense. Many young engineers can't see societal potential in what they do. They see solving the technical problem and completing the task. Senior engineers with a lot more experience have insight into "why" but that's often the point when they're given responsibility to guide others. The "should we do this?" question rests on the sh…

> Many young engineers can't see societal potential in what they do.

Then they are defective citizens. Citizenry before a job is just not that complicated.

Everyone is complicit in dirty work and I've very happily fired clients and quit jobs for being dirty. Do thou likewise or have your fellow citizens find you wanting for it. It's not hard.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#174

Post by [deleted] »

andmarios wrote: post #168
skrebbel wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop pushing the blame upstairs. If you knowingly build software that hurts people, you share the blame. The job market for programmers has never been better. "My boss told me to do it" is not an excuse. I, for one, hope more engineers involved in fraud (eg VW), privacy breaches (eg Facebook) etc get tried and punished. It might help make programmers realize that yes, your work actually affects real humans and yes, y…

Oh cool, so as an engineer I'm expected to know instantly if what I'm working on is legal or not, although most of these cases take years of legal battles or involve huge working bodies from EU, etc. Maybe since engineers are expected to have such good judgement, companies should strip their legal and HR departments and just put related matters for vote in Jira.

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#175

Post by eropple »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #170
timwaagh wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually 'my boss told me to build it' is an excuse. if you dont build it, you breach contract. you get fired or possibly sued for damages or breach of contract (as a contractor or external consultant). The job market isn't exactly great for recently fired engineers either. Nobody is above the law, and it is more than likely that some unlucky 'git-blamed' junior is going to face such a case some day instead of the bo…

Agreed. I dislike how every time we push for the "hot market for programmers" meme that only exists in the SV-like bubbles. Everywhere else around the world, it's just a regular job people do to put food on the table. Should we boycott people who work in the defense industry as well?

I've never lived in Silicon Valley. And I've been fired from jobs before. The longest I was ever unemployed not of my own volition was twelve days.

The poor benighted developer--engineers have expectations upon them that participants in this thread are clearly all too willing to abrogate, the term is invalid--will be just fine.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#176

Post by [deleted] »

0xDEFC0DE wrote: post #145
salawat wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, Doctor example isn't the best seeing as there is an entire industry in existence to handle the possibility that a doctor in the course of doing their job may end up causing harm, unintentional or not. I.e. malpractice insurance. I find this push of responsibility to the engineers encouraging. Finally may come the legislative framework through which I can shoot down an employer's design knowing that in all odds an…

We would need a similar-in-principle industry for engineers if they are legally and professionally responsible for code. It would likely be smaller and cheaper since most of us are not responsible for lives though. You definitely wouldn't need a lawyer on retainer.

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#177

Post by pgcj_poster »

ihuman wrote: post #161
pgcj_poster wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elections are only a small part of democracy. Things like free speech and privacy are also very important components of a functioning democracy.

I thought the basic definition of a democracy was a government where the members are voted on by the general population?

More generally, democracy means rule by the people. It's possible to allow the population to vote without actually giving it any power. Eg.

- If the elected government punishes people who voted the wrong way once it gets in power, then it's not really a democracy.

- If the elected government doesn't have any real power, and all the important decisions are made by warlords or corporate heads, then it is not really a democracy.

- If your boss can stand behind you while you cast your ballot to make sure you vote the right way, under threat of being fired, it's not really a democracy.

- If the only information you have on which to base your vote is the official state-run news, then it's not really a democracy.

- If all the government's power is concentrated in one person, who is elected for life, it's not really a democracy.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#178

Post by osrec »

skrebbel wrote: post #70
GreaterFool wrote: post #52

> that governments need to put some "guardrails" around engineers and the tech titans they serve The evil engineers! Not the managers, CEOs and so on, but engineers. The true root of evil. Finally someone recognizes who's really at fault

Stop pushing the blame upstairs. If you knowingly build software that hurts people, you share the blame. The job market for programmers has never been better. "My boss told me to do it" is not an excuse. I, for one, hope more engineers involved in fraud (eg VW), privacy breaches (eg Facebook) etc get tried and punished. It might help make programmers realize that yes, your work actually affects real humans and yes, y…

Sometimes you can be checkmated in your job and personal life. It's not that easy to quit a 150k job and find another when you've got a family and a mortgage. In those situations, your only option is to follow orders.

In my experience, it really is the managers who often are to blame for a lot of evil practices. To generalise, I'd say 80% of engineers are rarely evil, but 80% of managers are rarely not evil.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#179

Post by coding123 »

Barrin92 wrote: post #24
aj7 wrote: post #14

Warning. Regulation almost always favors incumbents.

This argument is always repeated within the first ten minutes of these discussions, but I don't really understand why anyone assumes that competition is somehow the panacea to every problem on the planet. I don't want ten unregulated facebooks who all leak my data, I want one facebook that plays by reasonable rules. The dynamics of social networks which don't deliver value if they're fragmented has made the competiti…

I don't understand why people think that data leakage is ONLY a problem for facebook and it's competition. If data leaks into an ad-tech company we can still compel them to delete it. All it requires is a good US version of the GDPR.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#180

Post by CriticalCathed »

skrebbel wrote: post #70
GreaterFool wrote: post #52

> that governments need to put some "guardrails" around engineers and the tech titans they serve The evil engineers! Not the managers, CEOs and so on, but engineers. The true root of evil. Finally someone recognizes who's really at fault

Stop pushing the blame upstairs. If you knowingly build software that hurts people, you share the blame. The job market for programmers has never been better. "My boss told me to do it" is not an excuse. I, for one, hope more engineers involved in fraud (eg VW), privacy breaches (eg Facebook) etc get tried and punished. It might help make programmers realize that yes, your work actually affects real humans and yes, y…

Good point. Doing your job has never been an excuse for ethical failings.
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