Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#141

Post by eitland » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 5:10 PM UTC

navigatesol wrote: post #120

jhall1468 wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The moment you open that door you have created the ultimate scapegoat in every corporate decision. Now every engineer is personally responsible for corporate decisions. It's easy when you look at VW and Facebook, but the more nuanced these things get, the more that what your advocating for is that programmers have to be lawyers as well. This horrible precedent and pushes the blame for everything downstairs. Meanwhile…

> Now every engineer is personally responsible for corporate decisions. This is the entire point. If the "corporate decision" involves doing bad things, and then you go ahead and implement those bad things as an engineer...you deserve to be held responsible for your part in it.

> you deserve to be held responsible for your part in it.

... as long as you are aware of it or should have been aware of it.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#142

Post by dmix » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 5:11 PM UTC

warbird wrote: post #92

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only part of your argument that's relevant is the part about selling personal information for profit. The rest is immaterial to the problem with unregulated industry, and in fact incorrect when it comes to the end-result of things like "political polarization". Governments and private companies are more than happy to see the mass organization and demonstrations of the 20th century turn into yelling at auntie on F…

The article itself barely touches upon the titular "stake." NPR inserts "election interference" and Smith is quoted in reference to personal data acquisition as a potentially dangerous wealth transfer/concentration. Since election interference is widely reported and understood to have been an intel operation aimed at polarizing U.S. public opinion with legitimate and illegitimate information, I dont see how treebeard…

Even beyond how effective the election manipulation was or wasn't, no one is asking whether the vague 'regulations' (by the US gov?) will do anything useful at all.

I suspect not but this all sounds reactionary "something must be done" where the utility of the something is always downplayed.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#143

Post by Iolaum » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #70

GreaterFool wrote: post #52

> that governments need to put some "guardrails" around engineers and the tech titans they serve The evil engineers! Not the managers, CEOs and so on, but engineers. The true root of evil. Finally someone recognizes who's really at fault

Stop pushing the blame upstairs. If you knowingly build software that hurts people, you share the blame. The job market for programmers has never been better. "My boss told me to do it" is not an excuse. I, for one, hope more engineers involved in fraud (eg VW), privacy breaches (eg Facebook) etc get tried and punished. It might help make programmers realize that yes, your work actually affects real humans and yes, y…

At Greece we have a saying. The fish smells from the head. While engineers share some of the blame if their corp does something evil/unlawful putting them on the spotlight instead of the people actually making the decisions is disingenuous.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#144

Post by salawat » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

0xDEFC0DE wrote: post #139

bcrosby95 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think salaries are high now, just wait until every engineer needs a personal lawyer to review every change request their boss makes of them.

You can train them enough to not be helpless without a lawyer. Doctors don't need one for every medical decision they make. You do need larger support systems to make this work though and that doesn't get built overnight. It certainly does limit new engineer throughput for society because of training times and increase salaries though.

Uh, Doctor example isn't the best seeing as there is an entire industry in existence to handle the possibility that a doctor in the course of doing their job may end up causing harm, unintentional or not. I.e. malpractice insurance.

I find this push of responsibility to the engineers encouraging. Finally may come the legislative framework through which I can shoot down an employer's design knowing that in all odds anyone else with a license at stake won't cave to mere financial coercion.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#145

Post by 0xDEFC0DE » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 5:23 PM UTC

salawat wrote: post #144

0xDEFC0DE wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can train them enough to not be helpless without a lawyer. Doctors don't need one for every medical decision they make. You do need larger support systems to make this work though and that doesn't get built overnight. It certainly does limit new engineer throughput for society because of training times and increase salaries though.

Uh, Doctor example isn't the best seeing as there is an entire industry in existence to handle the possibility that a doctor in the course of doing their job may end up causing harm, unintentional or not. I.e. malpractice insurance. I find this push of responsibility to the engineers encouraging. Finally may come the legislative framework through which I can shoot down an employer's design knowing that in all odds an…

We would need a similar-in-principle industry for engineers if they are legally and professionally responsible for code. It would likely be smaller and cheaper since most of us are not responsible for lives though.

You definitely wouldn't need a lawyer on retainer.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#146

Post by kgwxd » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 5:23 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #70

GreaterFool wrote: post #52

> that governments need to put some "guardrails" around engineers and the tech titans they serve The evil engineers! Not the managers, CEOs and so on, but engineers. The true root of evil. Finally someone recognizes who's really at fault

Stop pushing the blame upstairs. If you knowingly build software that hurts people, you share the blame. The job market for programmers has never been better. "My boss told me to do it" is not an excuse. I, for one, hope more engineers involved in fraud (eg VW), privacy breaches (eg Facebook) etc get tried and punished. It might help make programmers realize that yes, your work actually affects real humans and yes, y…

100 harmless modules can be built by 100 developers and be easily pieced together to form something devious. Also, a program can be harmless and even useful if used for personal/internal purposes but be pure evil when locked down and distributed.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#147

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 5:28 PM UTC

mattmcknight wrote: post #44

The threats to democracy arguments are so overblown. We're about to have a huge election. There is no literal threat to democracy. Hmmm...it must be some kind of metaphor. So what do people mean when they say this? The NPR piece says Smith suggests "the Internet giants will cannibalize the very fabric of this country". This metaphor seems hyperbolic as well. To use "cannibalize" means that something will eat itself.…

> We're about to have a huge election. There is no literal threat to democracy

Elections may be necessary to democracy, they are not sufficient. Most authoritarian states have elections, too.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#148

Post by pilsetnieks » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 5:29 PM UTC

blackflame7000 wrote: post #99

0xDEFC0DE wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I, for one, hope more engineers involved in fraud (eg VW), privacy breaches (eg Facebook) etc get tried and punished. It might help make programmers realize that yes, your work actually affects real humans and yes, you're partly responsible for getting it right. You can't do this without a lot of ethical backing, supportive law resources, whistleblower protections, and better controls on letting people into the indu…

The halting problem shows that it is impossible to verify a program is bug free. Therefore anyone could say that some feature X that harms the user is actually just a bug and you would be hard pressed to beat reasonable doubt Edit: I love downvotes without rebuttal.

> anyone could say that some feature X that harms the user is actually just a bug and you would be hard pressed to beat reasonable doubt

That would fall under criminal negligence then.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#149

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 5:30 PM UTC

skrebbel wrote: post #70

GreaterFool wrote: post #52

> that governments need to put some "guardrails" around engineers and the tech titans they serve The evil engineers! Not the managers, CEOs and so on, but engineers. The true root of evil. Finally someone recognizes who's really at fault

Stop pushing the blame upstairs. If you knowingly build software that hurts people, you share the blame. The job market for programmers has never been better. "My boss told me to do it" is not an excuse. I, for one, hope more engineers involved in fraud (eg VW), privacy breaches (eg Facebook) etc get tried and punished. It might help make programmers realize that yes, your work actually affects real humans and yes, y…

I’m ok with prosecuting software developers individually if we first require them to adhere to a set of standards in a similar fashion to real engineers.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#150

Post by tfehring » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 5:46 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #137

tfehring wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your and your children’s well being depend on your having a job. They don’t depend strictly on your current job. Approximately all engineers at big tech companies could put in their 2 week’s notice on Monday and find another job above the 95th salary percentile during that 2 week period.

That is a very optimistic view about how easy it is for the average engineer (many of whom are not even in software) to land a new job. Especially one that doesn't require them to move or otherwise make significant changes.

My comment referred to engineers at big tech companies, not the average engineer more generally. The job market is still really strong for engineers across the board, not just SWE. Experience at big tech companies still looks great on a resume, and those companies tend to be geographically concentrated in areas with lots of other tech companies.

To be clear, those engineers' quality of life may be dependent on working at big tech companies. But their ability to make a living and support their families is not. They have made the decision to contribute to abuses of human rights in exchange for a larger salary (and prestige, among other factors), and at least in my eyes, they're just as responsible for the consequences of that decision as their managers are.