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A Game That Made Rats Jump for Joy

theatlantic.com

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Re: A Game That Made Rats Jump for Joy

#11

Post by danharaj »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #6
namanyayg wrote: post #2

> How does the animal decide where it wants to seek, or whether it wants to hide? Or what happens when it’s surprised? When it thinks it knows where the experimenter is, what happens in its brain when she isn’t there? These questions at the end really made me a whole lot more interested in this topic. And it's interesting to note that she's awarding them with tickles, not food. Could it be why the rats found it to be…

It's hard to tell if there is a clear distinction between social/"fun" and food rewards. Experiments have shown an "anti-freeloading" effect in most species, except cats: Within reason, a reward for work is preferable over the same reward for no work. I also don't think cats care specifically whether or not their fun and playing leads to food or not. It just happens that their idea of fun would lead to discovering an…

I have heard that well fed cats are more active hunters.

Re: A Game That Made Rats Jump for Joy

#13

Post by thrav »

kristofferR wrote: post #10

This article has videos: https://gizmodo.com/scientists-taught-rats-to-play-hide-and-...

It bothers me more than it should that the human just watches where they go and immediately finds them, instead of actually playing the game with them.

Without getting too far off the reservation, there has to be a non-negligible difference if the human is genuinely searching and surprised to find them, and there is more to observe if it’s taking a while to find them.

Re: A Game That Made Rats Jump for Joy

#14

Post by nessunodoro »

pawelmurias wrote: post #9
michalu wrote: post #5

That's an exciting, new discovery that I hope won't find its application in places like whatever department does behavioural design at Facebook, game developers, marketers to make products more addictive ... kind of like when they found out that rats go crazy with irregular rewards :)

Addictive free to plays games being actually fun seems like an improvement in a way.

A game with noverbal, non-quantifiable, socially interactive rewards rather than loot boxes and vacuous artificial ranks would be a step in the right direction!

With all the hype about the release of classic WoW, I remembered my most satisfying gaming experience playing the original WoW circa 2005, when I communicated peacefully with a member of the opposite faction (non-PvP server, so there was no threat of sudden death). We couldn't chat, but we could gesture, dance, and importantly, throw snowballs to knock each other down (we both had them in our inventory, which was awesome to discover). We played like that for what seemed like an hour, although it was probably closer to 20 minutes. Just Barrens things.

I'd like to see more games where you can explore a world and interact with other players nonverbally, playfully, for the sheer delight of it.

Re: A Game That Made Rats Jump for Joy

#15

Post by PorterDuff »

thrav wrote: post #13
kristofferR wrote: post #10

This article has videos: https://gizmodo.com/scientists-taught-rats-to-play-hide-and-...

It bothers me more than it should that the human just watches where they go and immediately finds them, instead of actually playing the game with them. Without getting too far off the reservation, there has to be a non-negligible difference if the human is genuinely searching and surprised to find them, and there is more to observe if it’s taking a while to find them.

Rats are too good at the game given a chance. Given proper hiding places (like your barn), you'll never find them.

Re: A Game That Made Rats Jump for Joy

#16

Post by vidarh »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #6
namanyayg wrote: post #2

> How does the animal decide where it wants to seek, or whether it wants to hide? Or what happens when it’s surprised? When it thinks it knows where the experimenter is, what happens in its brain when she isn’t there? These questions at the end really made me a whole lot more interested in this topic. And it's interesting to note that she's awarding them with tickles, not food. Could it be why the rats found it to be…

It's hard to tell if there is a clear distinction between social/"fun" and food rewards. Experiments have shown an "anti-freeloading" effect in most species, except cats: Within reason, a reward for work is preferable over the same reward for no work. I also don't think cats care specifically whether or not their fun and playing leads to food or not. It just happens that their idea of fun would lead to discovering an…

The neighbour cat spends ages in my garden in hunting postures staring at insects and occasionally chasing them. Then she'll lie down and enjoy the weather for a bit,continue her patrol and come back a couple of hours later and repeat.

And when I was a kid we had a cat that we eventually discovered liked sitting in the berry bushes in the garden and kill birds. We discovered it because she didn't eat them, but just left them there and we eventually found a whole pile.

She did on occasion hunt for food too, but mostly when the prey was out of the norm, like once when she caught a large rat - only the tail was left. Of course I don't know how much she ate out at night, though.

Re: A Game That Made Rats Jump for Joy

#17

Post by vidarh »

bayesian_horse wrote: post #7
michalu wrote: post #5

That's an exciting, new discovery that I hope won't find its application in places like whatever department does behavioural design at Facebook, game developers, marketers to make products more addictive ... kind of like when they found out that rats go crazy with irregular rewards :)

Startup idea: Remotely activated tickling devices.

They exist, in the form of sex toys.

Re: A Game That Made Rats Jump for Joy

#18

Post by tejtm »

danharaj wrote: post #11
bayesian_horse wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to tell if there is a clear distinction between social/"fun" and food rewards. Experiments have shown an "anti-freeloading" effect in most species, except cats: Within reason, a reward for work is preferable over the same reward for no work. I also don't think cats care specifically whether or not their fun and playing leads to food or not. It just happens that their idea of fun would lead to discovering an…

I have heard that well fed cats are more active hunters.

I can attest there is a point of diminishing returns ...

Re: A Game That Made Rats Jump for Joy

#19

Post by pdamoc »

namanyayg wrote: post #2

> How does the animal decide where it wants to seek, or whether it wants to hide? Or what happens when it’s surprised? When it thinks it knows where the experimenter is, what happens in its brain when she isn’t there? These questions at the end really made me a whole lot more interested in this topic. And it's interesting to note that she's awarding them with tickles, not food. Could it be why the rats found it to be…

If you want to learn more about this topic, look at the work of Jaak Panksepp. "Archeology of the Mind" is one of the most interesting books I have ever read.

His TEDTalk is a quick overview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65e2qScV_K8

Re: A Game That Made Rats Jump for Joy

#20

Post by thrav »

PorterDuff wrote: post #15
thrav wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It bothers me more than it should that the human just watches where they go and immediately finds them, instead of actually playing the game with them. Without getting too far off the reservation, there has to be a non-negligible difference if the human is genuinely searching and surprised to find them, and there is more to observe if it’s taking a while to find them.

Rats are too good at the game given a chance. Given proper hiding places (like your barn), you'll never find them.

If you watch the video, there's only something like 4 hiding holes in the room though.
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