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France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

reuters.com

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Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#191

Post by logicchains »

cj wrote: post #175
logicchains wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 36 percent of adults view Facebook positively, while 33 percent see it negatively. And Twitter’s rating is 24 percent positive, 27 percent negative. Am I correct in reading here that more adults view Facebook positively than negatively? Interestingly, it also shows 68% of respondents agreed with "The federal government should not break these companies up because competition should be left to the free market without…

I primarily responded because I disagree with your opinion: > The views of people on Hackernews don't seem very representative of those of the general population, maybe because hating on Facebook is an excellent excuse for people to feel superior to the general population. I agree with the part that HN isn't representative of the general population. But I don't think the reason for disagreeing is because we on HN wan…

>But I don't think the reason for disagreeing is because we on HN want to feel superior to everyone else (maybe some people do, but I don't think most people here actually think that way..).

Maybe people don't explicitly think that, but people who demand a Facebook ban must at least implicitly believe they're somehow superior to the billions of Facebook users, otherwise how could they justify the notion that they way they want those people to spend their time is better than the way those people have demonstrated they want to spend their time? If I were to say to a grown adult "I demand you stop smoking pot, it's bad for you!", I can't imagine a way I could do that without coming across as believing I knew better than them.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#192

Post by capableweb »

bongobongo wrote: post #188
a3n wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They claim to provide jobs, like any business. As for Libra, it's close to competition with "money," and they are restraining Libra from competing in the money business that the two countries are engaged in.

[flagged]

Think this is less about liberalism (it doesn't argue for government to be run like a business) and more about US-inspired thinking where businesses are better than governments.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#193

Post by AFascistWorld »

WanderPanda wrote: post #99
dannyr wrote: post #90

I dislike Facebook but I kind of feel sorry for them now because any ambitious thing that they'll attempt will probably be blocked by governments now. Facebook and Zuckerberg deserves it though.

They probably should have started it without that huge buzz and in a couple of selected countries.

Unfortunately cryptocurrencies are all about buzz, buzz is valuation and adoption. Such as crypto showman Justin Sun, he will seize on any oppotunity to get as much eyeballs as possible.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#194

Post by avocado4 »

sorokod wrote: post #157
aazaa wrote: post #27

> “no private entity can claim monetary power, which is inherent to the sovereignty of nations” What a bizarre statement. Providing for security is also inherent to sovereignty of nations, but private security firms flourish. It's also odd in the context of Germany in particular where a private currency has been used for many years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiemgauer I suspect there's a lot more behind this sta…

What a bizarre statement. Providing for security is also inherent to sovereignty of nations, but private security firms flourish. Not in France or Germany. Just because US privataises it's military doesn't mean that this is universally accepted as a good idea.

France/Germany is not Soviet Union. Defence industry is alive and well, and it's not a bad thing if regulated properly.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#195

Post by justinzollars »

aduitsis wrote: post #156
justinzollars wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need more financial freedom in the west. Facebook is right to allow its users the ability to protect their assets with Libra - backed by a basket of currencies. I'm very excited about this idea; of course Governments are not going to be comfortable with something they can not control. Whey they go to the printing press to pay for their deficits I certainly want the ability to protect my assets with a stronger curr…

So, if "they" decide to do something with their currency, "you" would like to be able to opt out. So you position your interests outside theirs (correct me if I'm wrong). Fair enough, it's certainly your right. But in that light, what France and Germany are doing makes sense too. At the end of the day, they too have the right to protect their collective interests, correct? Or would you have them do something that goe…

I'm pro innovation! I can not understand why entrepreneurs have such targets on their back these days on hackernews.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#196

Post by xtracto »

Avamander wrote: post #26
aniforprez wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AH the bit about the goal being to make payments fast makes a ton of sense. The rest of the world has left the US in the dust with extremely fast payments systems. In India, the UPI system has taken the country by storm with direct,instant bank-to-bank money transfers which take seconds to complete and have no fees attached for the consumer

Europe has SEPA (Instant). The Chinese have WeChat Pay and similar? I'm curious, what other solutions other countries have?

Even Mexico has SPEI payment network which costs $0.36 USD for any amount

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_gross_settlement

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#197

Post by justinzollars »

short_sells_poo wrote: post #173
justinzollars wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need more financial freedom in the west. Facebook is right to allow its users the ability to protect their assets with Libra - backed by a basket of currencies. I'm very excited about this idea; of course Governments are not going to be comfortable with something they can not control. Whey they go to the printing press to pay for their deficits I certainly want the ability to protect my assets with a stronger curr…

At this point my opinion of Facebook is so low that I'd rather trust the incompetent monetary policy of governments than the competent but positively evil policy of Facebook. I'm aware that I'm very biased here but the tragedy that is Facebook upsets me all the more for what it could've been. Instead of being a boon to society, they've become the worst form of surveillance capitalism. I wouldn't trust facebook with h…

I don't like facebook either, I don't use it but I do like this idea. Libra is an innovation. A cryptocurrency backed by currencies (and credit markets) is very exciting.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#198

Post by wslh »

orbifold wrote: post #142
wslh wrote: post #118

I think the trend of demonopolizing currencies is unstoppable, just take time. I argue that this can be part of a new cold war dimension between countries and when some countries block financial initiatives others fund an opportunity. I wrote a little bit more about this vision in [1]. [1] https://blog.coinfabrik.com/libra-association-a-menace-and-a...

Nothing is unstoppable, nation states have militaries and intelligence services. Both can be very persuasive. Facebook is paying close to no taxes in the EU, so noone here has anything to lose from them simply disappearing.

Even following your reasoning, I repeat the same: states/federations like US, China, Russia, and EU could find a new way to compete and handle power, so we are talking about countries with a military and intelligence balance.

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#199

Post by HashThis »

zbolian wrote: post #71
aphextron wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Providing for security is also inherent to sovereignty of nations, but private security firms flourish. They exist entirely at the behest of their respective nation states' laws and regulations, and are completely subordinate to all official law enforcement and military forces. It's a flawed analogy. This would be tantamount to a private military company asserting their right to conduct foreign wars in the name of a…

The monetary policy of the currencies underlying libra are also fully determined at the behest of their respective nation states (or centralized monetary authority in the case of the EU). So, actually not that flawed. Governments and central banks are foolish to not get behind something like this because the alternative is something they can't influence at all like Bitcoin which maintains no peg to anything they do.

> ... no peg to anything they do.

Libra is still a problem. They start with a basket of USD + Yen + EURs to start. This appeases governments, just for the reason you mention "based on their currences".

...but Libra is designs that they can move away from them over time. It can move to revenue generating investments, like corporate bonds (like money markets do).

Libra can then wait until closer to countries defaulting on their national debt. The countries then start money printing at far higher rates. Their currencies drop in value (aka far higher inflation rates). Libra then shifts to corporate bonds and revenue generating assets.

This is good for citizens. It moves Libra from unsound money (USD + Yen + EURs) to sound money (asset backed & revenue generating assets). That makes Libra more powerful than bitcoin.

This becomes a strategic problem because it can cause a RUN on the national fiat currency, as Libra flees it. Libra then is infitely better than national's fiat currency, because Libra is asset backed. The US Dollar has about $0.03 worth of gold backing per $1.00 (after all of the money printing).

Re: France and Germany Agree to Block Facebook's Libra

#200

Post by lima »

detaro wrote: post #125
joes_hk wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also on the "money" you can read "Vereinsinterner Regio-Gutschein" which means that in a legal sense this is a voucher not a currency.

Presumably, Facebook calling Libra "the Libra voucher system" wouldn't quite fix it though.

Yes - you have to be a member of the Chiemgauer e.V. association in order to use or accept the vouchers, which is why it's called "vereinsintern", i.e. "internal to the association". It's not a general-purpose currency.
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