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Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

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Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#111

> that governments need to put some "guardrails" around engineers and the tech titans they serve The evil engineers! Not the managers, CEOs and so on, but engineers. The true root of evil. Finally someone recognizes who's really at fault

There is a type of person who will always walk right up to the line of what is legal and peer across. Too often these types hold leadership roles in companies. It is important to guard against these types, by ensuring our laws reflect our shared norms to those who will ignore norms unless compelled.

>It is important to guard against these types

Don't doubt for a second that MS knows what it's doing when it adks for this. Facebook as well is doing the same, asking for more regulations. They're trying to capitalize on what is called Regulatory Capture, which will entrench their market power through government force.

Sometimes this is more obvious, such as the case in finance where industry leaders smoothly swap roles as both profiteers and technocrats, and sometimes it is less obvious, as is the case now with big tech.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#112

Once upon a time public opinion was manipulated by TV and the big newspapers; now it is manipulated by new media companies. My stupid question is: where is the big difference?

Stories echo around the internet like a game of telephone to the point where you can't trust much of them at all. It's amazing how often authors on large publications like Yahoo blatantly copy and paste without attribution.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't advocate that corporate execs have shielding and the engineers don't. Where did you read that? It sounds to me that you're misreading my comment on purpose, to make an us-vs-them argument that I fundamentally disagree with. This isn't about engineers vs bosses, it's about doing the right thing no matter what's on your business card. The argument "if we can't shift the blame up, it'll automatically go down" si…

I read that by the fact that you only talked about punishing engineers. And I'm not misreading your comment on purpose, trust me I had to read it 4 times just to make sure I wasn't crazy and I was actually reading what I thought I was: someone advocating that bottom of the food chain employees be criminally liable for code they write. You are making an us-vs-them argument, to be sure. Your "us" is consumers and your…

Disagree. The idea that whatever you are asked to do has been vetted by others is an abdication of ethical responsibility. At present, a lot of what tech companies do is still legal, but that doesnt make it right. It's still legal because the maps of cyber law are largely still uncharted. An engineer working on a project that tracks user behavior without consent (for example) shouldn't be absolved or responsibility because their manager said it was okay.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#115
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had something like a consensus reality when big newspapers framed the terms of debate. Now we're retribalizing. Different groups are working not only with different beliefs, but also different sets of facts to cement their beliefs. By the time that a society recognizes that a new medium has changed them, it's too late.

"We had something like a consensus reality when big newspapers framed the terms of debate. Now we're retribalizing." Looking at newspapers prior to (let's say) WWII and that statement might be worth reconsidering.

Radio was rising up at that time. It made everybody nuts. Orson Welles demoed that quite clearly 1938 with his War of the World's fake emergency broadcast depicting a Marian invasion. It helped Hitler get his message across as well.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think because democracy also implies a separation of powers, so that you have the players watching each other in order to prevent any player from becoming too strong.

Again, there's a Soviet counterexample of army/party/intelligence service. Even in the case of a dictatorial and lifetime head of state, separation of powers is baked into the cake by groups with common interests, sometimes organically, sometimes on purpose.

Seperation of powers is necessary but not sufficient requirement for maintaining democracy. In classical Athens they didn't have that, so modern philosophers take pride that we do have it.

Of course any sufficiently big organization does have competing departments with conflicting agengas, but also there are nuances.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#117

> that governments need to put some "guardrails" around engineers and the tech titans they serve The evil engineers! Not the managers, CEOs and so on, but engineers. The true root of evil. Finally someone recognizes who's really at fault

Stop pushing the blame upstairs. If you knowingly build software that hurts people, you share the blame. The job market for programmers has never been better. "My boss told me to do it" is not an excuse. I, for one, hope more engineers involved in fraud (eg VW), privacy breaches (eg Facebook) etc get tried and punished. It might help make programmers realize that yes, your work actually affects real humans and yes, y…

>>> Stop pushing the blame upstairs. If you knowingly build software that hurts people, you share the blame. The job market for programmers has never been better. "My boss told me to do it" is not an excuse.

It is an excuse. If my livelihood depends on it, my children's health insurance depends on it (especially if you have kids that need continuous care), my kids university tuition depends on it, etc, etc... So, personally that's a very narrow view to take. Unless there is a support system that can maintain comparable quality of life for engineers who speak up and quit it's not going to happen. I know I wouldn't care unless someone really made it worth my while to do so.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#118

Nothing more than a cynical play by Microsoft to get a seat at the table for the inevitable avalanche of regulation coming.

Tech incumbents have an incentive to argue for regulation since they typically his small companies harder.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stop pushing the blame upstairs. If you knowingly build software that hurts people, you share the blame. The job market for programmers has never been better. "My boss told me to do it" is not an excuse. I, for one, hope more engineers involved in fraud (eg VW), privacy breaches (eg Facebook) etc get tried and punished. It might help make programmers realize that yes, your work actually affects real humans and yes, y…

The moment you open that door you have created the ultimate scapegoat in every corporate decision. Now every engineer is personally responsible for corporate decisions. It's easy when you look at VW and Facebook, but the more nuanced these things get, the more that what your advocating for is that programmers have to be lawyers as well. This horrible precedent and pushes the blame for everything downstairs. Meanwhile…

>Now every engineer is personally responsible for corporate decisions.

This is the entire point. If the "corporate decision" involves doing bad things, and then you go ahead and implement those bad things as an engineer...you deserve to be held responsible for your part in it.

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