Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#61

Post by MichaelMoser123 » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 2:46 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #42

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #13

Once upon a time public opinion was manipulated by TV and the big newspapers; now it is manipulated by new media companies. My stupid question is: where is the big difference?

Newspapers are responsible for what they publish and the owners can be sued for defamation or held to account. Big tech companies off-load that burden by saying "our users are arseholes and it's impossible to police what they say". The most extreme example are the lengths BackPage went to in order to keep taking money to place ads for children that had been kidnapped and drugged and were being offered for rape.

And in addition they can can claim to be unbiased and blame it all on the ML modell.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#62

Post by Ididntdothis » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 2:49 PM UTC

hd4 wrote: post #9

Why can't big tech self-regulate? Why must it always be a solution that depends on big government instead? Why should anyone trust the government given the last few thousand years of history?

Why do we need big government to prevent us from stealing or killing each other? Maybe the whole society should self regulate?

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#63

Post by entropea » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 2:49 PM UTC

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #13

Once upon a time public opinion was manipulated by TV and the big newspapers; now it is manipulated by new media companies. My stupid question is: where is the big difference?

I've been using NewPipe for a few months now instead of the Youtube application. I tried the Youtube application the other day and the app is one big advertisement. You get more ads than traditional TV now between sponsored Youtubers, ads every 5 minutes, full page ads in the Youtube app, dark patterns to make you click ads, except Google has all of the live analytics and demographics where traditional TV didn't.

Things really went south and nobody noticed.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#64

Post by throwawaywindev » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 2:55 PM UTC

GreaterFool wrote: post #52

> that governments need to put some "guardrails" around engineers and the tech titans they serve The evil engineers! Not the managers, CEOs and so on, but engineers. The true root of evil. Finally someone recognizes who's really at fault

A lot of MSFT management are engineers (including the CEO) so that’s probably not what he meant.

Disclosure: I work at MSFT.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#65

Post by rmrfrmrf » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 2:59 PM UTC

treebeard901 wrote: post #46

The claim that big tech itself is a threat to democracy needs to be debated. While they do manipulate their customers and sell their personal information for profit, the companies themselves have also been manipulated by the various groups in the world that are the actual threat to democracy. The political polarization might not be caused by technology but instead only amplifies it. One example where the tech compani…

The only part of your argument that's relevant is the part about selling personal information for profit. The rest is immaterial to the problem with unregulated industry, and in fact incorrect when it comes to the end-result of things like "political polarization". Governments and private companies are more than happy to see the mass organization and demonstrations of the 20th century turn into yelling at auntie on Facebook. Social media is the /dev/null of critical thought; a pressure valve for grievances that can be quickly assuaged by faves. The polarization of views online just makes us more silent IRL, much to the delight of our employers.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#66

Post by PorterDuff » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 3:05 PM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #42

MichaelMoser123 wrote: post #13

Once upon a time public opinion was manipulated by TV and the big newspapers; now it is manipulated by new media companies. My stupid question is: where is the big difference?

Newspapers are responsible for what they publish and the owners can be sued for defamation or held to account. Big tech companies off-load that burden by saying "our users are arseholes and it's impossible to police what they say". The most extreme example are the lengths BackPage went to in order to keep taking money to place ads for children that had been kidnapped and drugged and were being offered for rape.

In terms of celebrities/politicians, it's worth glancing through late 19th C. newspapers. They make the modern version look positively unbiased and polite.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#67

Post by mikestew » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 3:06 PM UTC

throwawaywindev wrote: post #64

GreaterFool wrote: post #52

> that governments need to put some "guardrails" around engineers and the tech titans they serve The evil engineers! Not the managers, CEOs and so on, but engineers. The true root of evil. Finally someone recognizes who's really at fault

A lot of MSFT management are engineers (including the CEO) so that’s probably not what he meant. Disclosure: I work at MSFT.

It probably is what he meant, because this is not a casual email but written for publication. If he used the word “engineer”, I will assume he meant “engineer”, and it is not necessary that you speak for management to correct perceived misunderstandings.

(NPR could have misstated Smith’s intent, but imma need a citation.)

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#68

Post by Jabbles » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 3:08 PM UTC

hos234 wrote: post #30

Zuckerberg & Co are going to play the 'we will loose to China card'. Which is going to slow down any kind of regulations... What's weird is, why there is no great rumbling against China's big tech within China. By now Chinese big tech should have wrecked the same unintended consequences and damage as American big tech. Whats going on there? I am guessing once things blow up there then we see global consensus on regul…

China isn't a democracy?

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#69

Post by dillonmckay » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 3:10 PM UTC

rmrfrmrf wrote: post #65

treebeard901 wrote: post #46

The claim that big tech itself is a threat to democracy needs to be debated. While they do manipulate their customers and sell their personal information for profit, the companies themselves have also been manipulated by the various groups in the world that are the actual threat to democracy. The political polarization might not be caused by technology but instead only amplifies it. One example where the tech compani…

The only part of your argument that's relevant is the part about selling personal information for profit. The rest is immaterial to the problem with unregulated industry, and in fact incorrect when it comes to the end-result of things like "political polarization". Governments and private companies are more than happy to see the mass organization and demonstrations of the 20th century turn into yelling at auntie on F…

“Social media is the /dev/null of critical thought”

Beautiful.

Re: Microsoft President: Democracy Is At Stake. Regulate Big Tech

#70

Post by skrebbel » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 3:11 PM UTC

GreaterFool wrote: post #52

> that governments need to put some "guardrails" around engineers and the tech titans they serve The evil engineers! Not the managers, CEOs and so on, but engineers. The true root of evil. Finally someone recognizes who's really at fault

Stop pushing the blame upstairs. If you knowingly build software that hurts people, you share the blame. The job market for programmers has never been better. "My boss told me to do it" is not an excuse.

I, for one, hope more engineers involved in fraud (eg VW), privacy breaches (eg Facebook) etc get tried and punished. It might help make programmers realize that yes, your work actually affects real humans and yes, you're partly responsible for getting it right.

If your boss makes you write evil crap, quit and get a better job. No need to be all courageous and write an angry blog post, most of us are wimps and that's fine. But that doesn't mean you can't vote with your feet. We need engineers to stop being willing to work anywhere as long as the pay is good and the tech is cool.