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Age Discrimination at Work

nytimes.com

131–140 of 206 posts

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#131
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 54. Have been in sw dev for 40 years. I have kept my skills (aws api / node.js / css / html5 / etc) up to the point were I am over qualified for many of the positions (laid off 3 years back from IBM) I apply for. Before I updated my LinkedIn profile pic I received many interview invites. Now I get none. Recently I started looking at the people that these sw dev companies _actually_ hire. They ask for 3/5/10 years…

I'm a middle age female software developer and also found similar experience when I was in the job market recently. The software development positions generally are below 2 years, under 5 years and the senior position at 6-8 years. What do you do if you have 20 years of software development experience?

> What do you do if you have 20 years of software development experience?

Move to a market where your skills are in high demand and focus on middle/business and back end development. Or better yet, embedded systems development.

I've been at this for 25 years and IMO, the further down the call stack you go the more your cumulative years of experience are an asset.

This doesn't mean you can stop learning new tech, it just means the trends in those lower layers seem to be more sustained and of a longer duration.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#132

In my experience age discrimination is real. All large companies explicitly discriminate against young employees because US law does not prevent it (50+ becomes the protected class). Most young corporate employees are promoted on a schedule. The inputs to that algorithm are age and performance. Large companies explicitly discriminate against young employees by paying them less and refusing to promote them without con…

This is a common young person view. You're probably conflating age and experience level here. You also seem to be assuming that people necessarily get promoted at regular intervals based on age - that's flat-out demonstrably not true. If it was true, everyone at age X would be a manager, everyone at age Y would be a director, etc. I've consulted with a lot of big cos and it's extremely common to see people well into…

> it's extremely common to see people well into their 40s who haven't made it to a manager role

"You aren't a manager, therefore your career is a stalled-out failure" is a pretty outdated view. It's getting to be the norm for companies (at least in tech) to have parallel career tracks for managers and individual contributors. Principal/staff engineers at big tech companies have more responsibility and higher compensation than almost any of their management-track colleagues. I'll grant you that the very top position (CEO) is always a management role, though.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#133
post #3

I was applying to a job with a large game studio. The interview was going pretty well, I'd thought. We talked a bit about how we'd implement certain gameplay elements, the content of the projects we've worked on, and overall it just seemed good and we all seemed to get along pretty well. Then they asked me how old I was. Their response to my age was, "Oh... maybe it's a little late then. You're not too old, but... ki…

I think the rejection might actually be good for you - they certainly were looking for a young, naive, and enthusiastic person - to exploit to death their desire to work in game industry, and pay them peanuts.

This sounds familiar

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#134

I've seen and heard of age discrimination in non-tech industries, but in the tech industry I believe that age discrimination is often mistaken for skills obsolescence. As a software developer for as long as I can remember, I'm actually at the top of my game now in my 40s - I can software engineer (plan) off the top of my head, and my tenacity is balanced with a sense of direction I never had as a younger developer. I…

Whenever topics like this come up on HN, there are always tons of people in their 30s and 40s posting comments like this, which boil down to something like: "I'm not old enough to experience age discrimination yet, and I'm scared but I'm going to keep up with the latest languages/frameworks so I will be special and not be discriminated against like all the other developers, who allowed their skills to deteriorate whe…

51 here - 40+ years coding - haven't had any issues with my age yet...

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#135
post #41

I'm now over 50 years old, a full stack web developer, and I'm married and have two kids, an 8 year old and a 1 year old baby. I've been in this industry for a while. I started out as a system administrator writing a lot of bash and Perl scripts, taking care of mail servers and DNS, and doing a lot of corporate backups. That job is now called "DevOps", and I've made the transition. I now work in Python 3, Django, Rub…

I've never worked with a significantly older person (in tech anyways), but I would happily lean on them for sniffing out fads. Even in my 30's, it's kinda hard to tell what's a fad and what's not. I really don't understand why there is a bias against age. Programming, for me, is a daily exercise in epistemic humility, and I can't fathom having the kind of arrogance to discount the experience and wisdom that comes wit…

There's two different, but related, things going on:

1) Is regular, ordinary age discrimination. This is why tech companies won't hire people starting second careers into entry level programming roles.

2) The widespread notion that more than about 5 years programming experience is not valuable, maybe even counterproductive. (Firm specific knowledge is a different story, tech companies do value that.) Hence all the "senior" programmers with 3 years experience.

--

The first one is illegal and in my opinion immoral. The second one to my mind an empirical question--it doesn't seem to be true based on my experiences and observations, but I'd be willing to have my mind changed by evidence.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#136
post #4

What profession is this article about? Surely age discrimination varies hugely depending on profession.

Having worked in a few fields (never in development), my experience is that while it varies in quality, it is almost omnipresent.

In my 40s, now, and for a few reasons, looking at having to self-reinvent, again. Opportunity cost is very high and desired outcome uncertain from all preferred choices. While I try to remain positive and productive, I'd be dishonest if I didn't admit that I am scared that I will never again work in a mentally-engaged, fulfilling profession.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#137
I think employers discriminate against older people to their own detriment. We have a couple of people in their 50s in our tech team, as well as a broad spread in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. We very fortunate to have a fantastic team across the board, which very much includes our most experienced members.

Granted they tend to be more expensive, but older people have numerous advantages that deliver value which more than offsets the direct costs of salary and benefits:

- More experience (obviously!): not just in terms of work, but in terms of life

- This often means better social skills, and also greater resilience

- Experience means they're often just better at what they do than less experienced staff

- They tend to have family commitments, which means they want to work sane hours, which to me helps set a healthy cultural precedent

- They tend to know themselves well, and are often more settled/content; this can mean less political game playing and jockeying for position/trying to prove themselves. This isn't to suggest they lack ambition, although their priorities are often different, but they tend to be more graceful in trying to achieve their ambitions

- They seem less likely to burdened by an overdeveloped sense of entitlement

All of these are generalisations and there will, of course, be exceptions, but I think it's hard to argue against these characteristics as being more prevalent amongst older workers.

When it comes to tricky pastoral and technical situations, I often find myself leaning quite heavily on the wisdom of my older team members. I really wouldn't be without them[1].

[1] N.B., at 43 I'm no spring chicken myself.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#138

We had two young engineers (who are no longer with us now) discriminate against applicants for software development roles because of their age, religion, or origins. One of them is a google developer expert and he quite openly rejected people by discriminating against their age (anyone 40+) and beliefs. I didn’t want to veto the hiring decisions even though I could have because at the end of the day they’ll have to w…

> We had two young engineers (who are no longer with us now) discriminate against applicants for software development roles because of their age, religion, or origins. One of them is a google developer expert and he quite openly rejected people by discriminating against their age (anyone 40+) and beliefs. I didn’t want to veto the hiring decisions even though I could have because at the end of the day they’ll have to work with him.

I'm not sure that's a great reason to condone illegal discrimination.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#139

That is not good advice at all. All it says is "it is up to you old people to put all the effort you can muster at competing with the young". Not everyone gets to look immaculate in their 60s, not everyone gets to occupy a "(prominent) wise elder" position in life by that age either. Just as well, fitting in with fleeting trends is not something people should have to prioritize to be considered productive. What about…

If you’re that far along in your career and are still in direct competition with very junior people, then yes, you had better differentiate yourself!

An employee is a seller of labor, and an employer is a buyer. To make the sale, the job seeker must demonstrate the strongest possible value. A lot of outside obligations or time otherwise required to be away from work, all else being equal, makes competitors look relatively more attractive.

Put yourself in the employer’s shoes. Say your toilet is backed up. I’ll assume you’re a homeowner responsible for getting it fixed and not a renter. The first thing you’d likely do is ask your friends to recommend a good plumber. Then you’ll start making phone calls. You probably don’t want someone still in trade school. The best plumber in town may be very expensive or unavailable for a couple of weeks. You have an urgent problem! You talk to another plumber with a reasonable rate but may have to pop in and out of the job on short notice. You need your toilet unstopped today, which means good rate, good reputation, can get there today, and who will stay until the job is done.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#140
post #41

I'm now over 50 years old, a full stack web developer, and I'm married and have two kids, an 8 year old and a 1 year old baby. I've been in this industry for a while. I started out as a system administrator writing a lot of bash and Perl scripts, taking care of mail servers and DNS, and doing a lot of corporate backups. That job is now called "DevOps", and I've made the transition. I now work in Python 3, Django, Rub…

Same here - over 50, remote worker - no complaints... I hear about age discrimination on here a lot, but I can't honestly say I know any coder impacted by it. Even my friends in silicon valley are still employed in their 50s.

I wonder if its a regional thing? Areas with high demand for coders can't afford to throw out good candidates because they have grey hair?

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