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Age Discrimination at Work

nytimes.com

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Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#121

Post by gilbetron »

tenaciousDaniel wrote: post #73
wyclif wrote: post #41

I'm now over 50 years old, a full stack web developer, and I'm married and have two kids, an 8 year old and a 1 year old baby. I've been in this industry for a while. I started out as a system administrator writing a lot of bash and Perl scripts, taking care of mail servers and DNS, and doing a lot of corporate backups. That job is now called "DevOps", and I've made the transition. I now work in Python 3, Django, Rub…

I've never worked with a significantly older person (in tech anyways), but I would happily lean on them for sniffing out fads. Even in my 30's, it's kinda hard to tell what's a fad and what's not. I really don't understand why there is a bias against age. Programming, for me, is a daily exercise in epistemic humility, and I can't fathom having the kind of arrogance to discount the experience and wisdom that comes wit…

> Programming, for me, is a daily exercise in epistemic humility

I'm 48, been programming since I was 8, professionally since I was 16, and I feel the same way.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#122

Post by xyzal »

My experience: I work in one of the more conservative IT branches (healthcare IT) and the grey beards I have met (usually old coders who did not submit to the management lure) were most of the time really inspiring people in terms of professional (and sometimes 'humane') insight.

This gives me hope, as I love my job and do not intend to leave my chosen career anytime soon.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#123

Post by bluecalm »

mschuster91 wrote: post #109
bluecalm wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree it's part of the societal contract. I am already grateful to live in a world previous generations built. The wars are fought, the infrastructure is built. I get access to technology previous generations could only dream of. I can do business selling to the whole world wearing underwear sitting in my bedroom even if it's a 3rd world country. I couldn't have asked for more of previous generations. The las…

> The wars are fought, the infrastructure is built. The wars are just beginning - over water, rare resources, arable land, whatever - and the infrastructure across Western countries is rotting under our feet as maintenance was mostly skipped on.

That's the very pessimistic view. We have the longest peaceful period ever at least in the Western world and access to infrastructure previous generations could only dream about. It's true overpopulation in areas not suitable for sustaining big populations is a problem but it's difficult to predict how it plays out. It's not that people needed much reason to start wars in the past and it seems we've reached quite a stable state now at least from historical perspective.

I mean I still have living family members who remember their homes taken away, being packed on the train and transported to Syberia by Soviets so it's very hard for me not be grateful for the kind of world I get to live in.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#124

Post by gilbetron »

WomanCanCode wrote: post #117
68020 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 54. Have been in sw dev for 40 years. I have kept my skills (aws api / node.js / css / html5 / etc) up to the point were I am over qualified for many of the positions (laid off 3 years back from IBM) I apply for. Before I updated my LinkedIn profile pic I received many interview invites. Now I get none. Recently I started looking at the people that these sw dev companies _actually_ hire. They ask for 3/5/10 years…

I'm a middle age female software developer and also found similar experience when I was in the job market recently. The software development positions generally are below 2 years, under 5 years and the senior position at 6-8 years. What do you do if you have 20 years of software development experience?

Recently worked for a (bad) silicon valley YC company, and was shocked to learn that 6-8 years of experience is considered senior these days. Not enough experience at that point to really be senior, but I think there's such a desperate need for developers that they have to do that.

To be clear, I've certainly met people in their 20s that have senior-level ability, but they are by far the exception.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#125

Post by bluecalm »

cameronbrown wrote: post #47
bluecalm wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree it's part of the societal contract. I am already grateful to live in a world previous generations built. The wars are fought, the infrastructure is built. I get access to technology previous generations could only dream of. I can do business selling to the whole world wearing underwear sitting in my bedroom even if it's a 3rd world country. I couldn't have asked for more of previous generations. The las…

> The last thing I could complain about is people from the generation providing me with all that trying to still work and make money out of it. But GPs comment was about pensioners who want to retire but cannot. Those who enjoy working - sure.

The comment was about "making space" for younger generation. I just don't agree with that view. There is more opportunity then ever and old people still working jobs is not a problem for younger ones (although it might be a problem for them if they counted on longer retirement).

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#126

Post by ilaksh »

68020 wrote: post #88
lapnitnelav wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry if what I'm about to say is rude, please file that under me being ignorant rather malicious. Given your struggles to get a job and your very valuable experience, what's holding you back from going as a contractor / setting up your own shop?

That is the route I am now going. Until my last breath I'm going to build a sw company and hire 100's of people. Like all companies I'll have a page on my site that says how moral and inclusive we are except that we won't be hypocrites like most (all?) other sw companies. This is my delusional dream.

What I have found is that it can be much easier to find remote work that pays fairly poorly. Usually startups and the like. There is a lot of it.

Can't afford to live in the US anymore but Mexico is working out pretty well.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#127

Post by koreth1 »

commandlinefan wrote: post #61
rfrey wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t that solved by specifying “junior developer” or “intermediate developer”? Or by including the salary range?

It should be - but I’m positive that everybody with over 10 years experience is calling themselves a “senior developer” by now. There’s no level after that, so most everybody over 35 is a senior developer.

I wish it were "over 10 years." I help review resumes for my company and on a nearly daily basis I see people with one or even two "senior software engineer" jobs and 6-7 years of experience.

It always sticks out as an, "Oh REALLY?" But without talking to the candidate you never know if it reflects poorly on their knowledge of their own limitations, or is just a sign they happened to work for companies with title inflation. I've seen both.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#128

Post by auspex »

WomanCanCode wrote: post #117
68020 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm 54. Have been in sw dev for 40 years. I have kept my skills (aws api / node.js / css / html5 / etc) up to the point were I am over qualified for many of the positions (laid off 3 years back from IBM) I apply for. Before I updated my LinkedIn profile pic I received many interview invites. Now I get none. Recently I started looking at the people that these sw dev companies _actually_ hire. They ask for 3/5/10 years…

I'm a middle age female software developer and also found similar experience when I was in the job market recently. The software development positions generally are below 2 years, under 5 years and the senior position at 6-8 years. What do you do if you have 20 years of software development experience?

I think you should start looking for jobs that are "developer adjacent". Product managers, technical marketing, sales engineer, solution architect.

Jobs like presales engineers have higher salaries than developers, require 15+ years experience (dev preferred) and excellent soft skills.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#129

Post by shams93 »

wyclif wrote: post #41

I'm now over 50 years old, a full stack web developer, and I'm married and have two kids, an 8 year old and a 1 year old baby. I've been in this industry for a while. I started out as a system administrator writing a lot of bash and Perl scripts, taking care of mail servers and DNS, and doing a lot of corporate backups. That job is now called "DevOps", and I've made the transition. I now work in Python 3, Django, Rub…

I'm pushing 50 the older I get the shorter the engagements get until I have lost everything and live with my mom with no income. Its really brutal I gave up on having relationships and family to do a couple decades worth of unpaid overtime and my payback is being thrown out of society.

Re: Age Discrimination at Work

#130

Post by thecardcheat »

lacampbell wrote: post #75
justanother wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the United States, literally nobody should be asking your age during a job interview.

That's the law in a lot of countries, including here, but I've been asked it anyway. What are you going to do about it, beyond secretly recording your interviews then suing?

For the sake of your time and your sanity you should do neither of those things. You should file a complaint with the appropriate state labor body, particularly in a US state like CA where the agencies are well funded. The chance of it benefiting you is virtually nil, but the chance of it causing pain for the employer - hopefully forcing them to change their ways - is non-zero.

Outside the US I have no knowledge of at what level those protections may/may not be enforced (but hopefully somewhere).

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