Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped by up to 90% since 1914 • Hacker News Board

Re: Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped by up to 90% since 1914

#211

Post by partialrecall » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 3:43 AM UTC

mikelyons wrote: post #124

fucking_tragedy wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it turns out that the adherents of the religion of "love thy neighbor" and "it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" have no problem with our economic system.

I'm talking about psychedelic induced direct experiences of the point of life as utter selflessness and infinite love.

Are you ready to use violence to enforce your religion of love? There is no way in hell I'd willingly submit to you drugging me.

Re: Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped by up to 90% since 1914

#212

Post by jacobwilliamroy » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 3:44 AM UTC

bwb wrote: post #196

jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone posted a study which specifically compared bioavailability of heme iron from animals to non-heme iron from plants: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/78/3/633S/4690005#1098... Why would low bioavailability convince you to care less about the declining minerals? Surely declining mineral content would be exacerbated by low bioavailability? How does that make things better? An 80% loss still means you have to…

Well, but maybe an 80% loss doesn't matter as we only absorb x mg of minerals. You know? This might not matter for humans if we don't know how much we can absorb, it might not be a percentile but rather than a cap and we pee or poop the rest out.

I see what you're saying now, thanks for clarifying. I'm not sure how much nutrition people need in general. Perhaps we're still getting a surplus of nutrients at the current volume of food consumption, despite the loss of minerals. I am fearful of food unsecurity and malnutrition.

Re: Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped by up to 90% since 1914

#213

Post by robbiep » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 3:48 AM UTC

AdamN wrote: post #133

robbiep wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Organic farming includes crop rotation, fertilizer, soil quality, and erosion control standards that would hypothetically affect mineral contents. So does ‘conventional’ farming

That's not totally true. I remember as a kid going to my grandfather's farm in Iowa and there would be an alfalfa rotation every 6 years I believe. Now they don't bother with that anymore since the fertilizers/seeds and other treatments mean that the low value alfalfa no longer needs to be in the mix. Fertilizer is like doping. It works! But it comes at a long term cost. Anyway, now we can go down two paths, hyper-mo…

I have no idea how old you are but the truth is farming techniques have changed significantly, even in the last 20 years. Nowdays if you don't consider yourself a steward of the land then you aren't doing the right thing by it.

My family are farmers in Australia. We are currently going through the worst drought we have ever had. We've had 7 inches of rain this year vs our annual rainfall of 26 inches. We are still growing a (very small) crop. This is possible because of soil conservation, no-till agriculture, and having healthy soil that conserves moisture.

Farmers who haven't adopted these techniques are bankrupt.

in the US and Europe, it is possible to not engage in best practice farming techniques, because government subsidies (20 Bn USD in America, 59 Bn Euro in the EU) remove the competitive pressures that that force best practice (it really isn't as simple as 'just forcing more production out of the soil by adding more fertilizer_.

Yes, of course there are still farmers not following best practice. It's a normal distribution

Re: Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped by up to 90% since 1914

#214

Post by api » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 3:52 AM UTC

tmp190914pn2 wrote: post #194

01100011 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly disagreeing with you, but it seems like increasing yields and inadequate fertilization focusing on macronutrients would also explain the drop. If I grow crops that preferentially absorb certain minerals and then take away most of the vegetable matter from the plot, the soil content of the absorbed minerals is going to drop without something to replenish it. Now, I'm not saying soil bacteria and mychorrhiz…

Both parent and grandparent are saying something important here. Mineral availability from the microbiome via root interactions is critical. But throw nitrogen at a plant and it will rapidly grow utilizing CO2, O2 and water, leaving a mineral deficient plant. And that is true in any soil. Also, modern plants have been selected to be large and tender, which tends to be inversely coorelated to mineral density. So it's…

You get what you incentivize. Produce is typically sold by weight.

Re: Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped by up to 90% since 1914

#215

Post by chimi » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 3:55 AM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #97

chimi wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to run an organic farm experimenting with hydroponics and I did a ton of research on this. What I found, organic does not mean healthier. In fact, a larger percentage of food related illnesses are reported for organic foods than foods without the organic label, which itself is controversial and misleading. This is largely due to the types of fertilizer used. Animal waste is used to fertilize organic foods. Yes…

Hydroponics can’t scale like industrial farming. Our farming practices need to improve to make industrial farming sustainable. My own foray into hydroponics has been lack luster. Lettuce didn’t taste as good and it’s much more maintenance. I can setup water timers and fertilize every x weeks in my garden. You have to constantly check hydro and put chemicals in it very often. Too labor intensive.

it absolutely can scale and does scale. It is being done at scale right now.

My experience was the opposite of yours. We found through experimentation that the flavor of the crop was directly related to the mineral concentration in the solution. We too had bland crop, but a little research suggested we starve our plants of water. In other words, if you want more flavor, increase the concentration of nutrients. It was easy to check the PPM and pH of the water with two devices you can get on Amazon for under $20. We also used timers.

Our organic farming required a dump truck load of compost, while the hydroponics was about a 5 lb bag of minerals and used about 10% of the water as the soil based. It's much more efficient. In the back yard, it's not that big a deal, but at scale, farming is largely about material movement.

The amount of labor to run an organic farm was incredible. It's also expensive and requires heavy equipment to scale a large farm. Hydroponics not as much, because there is no soil to move, which is heavy! Tilling, raking, tons of fertilizer and pesticides distributed across acres by machines and planes. Whereas hydroponics does that all just by pumping water, which is already being done in those same industrial farms.

Hydroponics requires a lot less labor. Just more thinking. You have to research. You have to engineer things. But you lift less. You move less. Physically its easier. Yes, it's harder because you have to think smarter, but it's not more labor intensive, precisely the opposite.

Re: Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped by up to 90% since 1914

#216

Post by chii » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 4:04 AM UTC

api wrote: post #214

tmp190914pn2 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both parent and grandparent are saying something important here. Mineral availability from the microbiome via root interactions is critical. But throw nitrogen at a plant and it will rapidly grow utilizing CO2, O2 and water, leaving a mineral deficient plant. And that is true in any soil. Also, modern plants have been selected to be large and tender, which tends to be inversely coorelated to mineral density. So it's…

You get what you incentivize. Produce is typically sold by weight.

produce rich in nutrients are typically also tastier. However, modern groceries (such as massive chain stores) require huge logistics and scale, and thus expect farmers to produce a steady, homogenous and sturdy crop that also happen to lack nutrients. It's unfortunate that for the produce to be cheap, it has to be done the way it is today.

Not everybody can afford to have "organically grown" heirloom tomatoes, because it's too expensive, and labour intensive. May be genetically modifying foods to also take in minerals properly is the answer...

Re: Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped by up to 90% since 1914

#217

Post by schaefer » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 4:15 AM UTC

tastyfreeze wrote: post #82

This happened due to extermination of soil life through modern farming practices of heavy tilling, fertilizing and monoculture crops. Dead soil is more susceptible to erosion and requires ever increasing amounts of synthetic fertilizer to grow anything. More soil has been lost from the US than the amount of food that has been produced. Soil fertility can be returned to historical levels by changing farming practices…

Thanks for sharing, Tastyfreeze.

Re: Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped by up to 90% since 1914

#218

Post by chimi » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 4:18 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #151

chimi wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to run an organic farm experimenting with hydroponics and I did a ton of research on this. What I found, organic does not mean healthier. In fact, a larger percentage of food related illnesses are reported for organic foods than foods without the organic label, which itself is controversial and misleading. This is largely due to the types of fertilizer used. Animal waste is used to fertilize organic foods. Yes…

Very interesting! Where could I learn more about this, in particular how to run my own experiments growing plants with the 17 elements and so on? Also, have you looked into aeroponics as well?

There are lots of good books on it and youtubes. It largely depends on what you want to grow. Fruiting plants are different than leafy plants, for example.

I suggest starting with a nutrient blend like this: https://www.amazon.com/MasterBlend-4-18-38-Tomato-Vegetable-...

You can look up the ratios of the elements for different plants on the web. It's all out there. mhpgardener on Youtube is amazing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXy32Dr4Z4A He has videos on how to set up different types of hydroponic systems, there are 3 main types, the video link is to an Ebb and Flow system called Dutch Buckets and is mainly used for fruiting plants like tomatoes, eggplant and peppers.

There's also Nutrient Film Technique (NFT) which is more like what you see in PVC systems that pump water along the roots of the plants. There's also a raft system where the plants float on top of the water and the roots are constantly submerged.

I looked at Aeroponics too and I believe that is an excellent system as well, though did not try it.

Watch mhpgardener's experiments with different nutrients. He does one with organic nutrients, but they didn't grow as well as the masterblend recipe, which you can learn about here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYv9iu2NI3M

I remember watching a video about a Japanese company that can tweak the flavor of different herbs to exactly cater to what their chefs wanted to accentuate different notes for different dishes.

For equipment, you'll need a pH meter: https://www.amazon.com/Poit-Digital-Meter-Tester-Resolution/...

a PPM meter for nutrient concentration: https://www.amazon.com/HM-Digital-TDS-EZ-Measurement-Resolut...

The rest depends on the setup you want and the plants you want to grow. What do you want to grow? I can point you to a good kit to get started. Here's one for dutch buckets on amazon, real cheap. https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Water-Culture-DWC-Hydroponic/dp/... You could grow two tomato plants in one bucket and get 20-30 pounds out of it in one season very easily.

Pretty much anyone here can do hydroponics. It's like programming plants!

And they do not taste like grocery store hydroponic veggies. Those are grown to meet other priorities: thick skin, shelf life, uniformity, color (sometimes). They are not concerned with flavor or nutrients.

In your home, in your yard, you can prioritize any aspect of the plant you want, what's important to you: Flavor, Nutrients, Color, Size, harvest dates.

They are all just numbers. It's not that hard. It's not easy and you have to care but it's the same as anything. If you care and you want it, you can do it. I know, because I did and I want more people to know they can too.

YOU CAN!

Re: Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped by up to 90% since 1914

#219

Post by jillesvangurp » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 4:21 AM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #97

chimi wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to run an organic farm experimenting with hydroponics and I did a ton of research on this. What I found, organic does not mean healthier. In fact, a larger percentage of food related illnesses are reported for organic foods than foods without the organic label, which itself is controversial and misleading. This is largely due to the types of fertilizer used. Animal waste is used to fertilize organic foods. Yes…

Hydroponics can’t scale like industrial farming. Our farming practices need to improve to make industrial farming sustainable. My own foray into hydroponics has been lack luster. Lettuce didn’t taste as good and it’s much more maintenance. I can setup water timers and fertilize every x weeks in my garden. You have to constantly check hydro and put chemicals in it very often. Too labor intensive.

Recent trends in vertical farming are to heavily automate all of this and use sensors to maximize yields and minimize waste. Greenhouses in the Netherlands have been using hydroponics at scale for decades and are a reason it's a leading exporter of e.g. tomatoes and many other crops. The whole point of hydroponics is industrial scale and maximizing yields.

What you call industrial farming started roughly mid last century when people were people figured out how to grow a handful of crops at scale using large machinery at the cost of diversity and quality. The modern variant of that heavily relies on overusing pesticides, herbicides, fertilizers, etc.

The downside of farming like this is the lack of diversity of crops and the negative side-effects on the environment. Industrial farming has destroyed vast amounts of land and turned them into eroded wastelands and deserts.

Modern farming is becoming more high tech and using data driven approaches, automation, etc. enables smarter use of land, a wider variety of crops, better quality produce, and more efficient use of resources (water, chemicals, nutrients, light, energy, etc.). Hydroponics are one form of that but also organic farming has evolved way beyond hippies growing small amounts of produce like the industrial revolution never happened. Organic farming at industrial scale is becoming a thing.

Re: Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped by up to 90% since 1914

#220

Post by bwb » Sat, Sep 14, 2019, 4:26 AM UTC

jacobwilliamroy wrote: post #212

bwb wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, but maybe an 80% loss doesn't matter as we only absorb x mg of minerals. You know? This might not matter for humans if we don't know how much we can absorb, it might not be a percentile but rather than a cap and we pee or poop the rest out.

I see what you're saying now, thanks for clarifying. I'm not sure how much nutrition people need in general. Perhaps we're still getting a surplus of nutrients at the current volume of food consumption, despite the loss of minerals. I am fearful of food unsecurity and malnutrition.

Ya me too on malnutrition and food desserts. Americans eat so few veggies and we are still living for a long time. And for rich Americans who match Japanese longevity, this doesn't seen to be hurting us.

Like if we all had scurvy and were bleeding from the gums by age 19 I'd be worried more :)

Or maybe it is what is spiking auto immune diseases or something weird.