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Alabama tracking students' locations to penalize them for leaving games early

nytimes.com

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Re: Alabama tracking students' locations to penalize them for leaving games early

#11

Post by partialrecall »

harryh wrote: post #4
partialrecall wrote: post #3

It's not at all clear to me why we allow American football and universities to have such a perverse relationship, when it's plain to see that football itself has nothing to do with education, except insofar as it's an activity that many students enjoy (but there is no shortage of other non-academic activities that many students share, such as baseball...) And in cases like this, where students are leaving the game ea…

Many students who attend American universities aren't just buying education. They are buying a "college experience" of which sports are a major part.

That might be a reason for the system to remain as it is, but it doesn't explain why the system is that way in the first place.

Furthermore, if the desires of the students were really the root motivation, then Alabama wouldn't need to manipulate the desires of students by providing weird point-system incentives.

Re: Alabama tracking students' locations to penalize them for leaving games early

#12

Post by bgilroy26 »

partialrecall wrote: post #3

It's not at all clear to me why we allow American football and universities to have such a perverse relationship, when it's plain to see that football itself has nothing to do with education, except insofar as it's an activity that many students enjoy (but there is no shortage of other non-academic activities that many students share, such as baseball...) And in cases like this, where students are leaving the game ea…

I think we will look back on this period of American universities (between say the 1980s and whenever the NFL gets a basic minor league) as a great aberration. College sports were meant to be clubs of enthusiasts from the student body, not a parallel big business.

Maybe as an intermediate step, you could have schools that sponsor the teams and offer scholarships for when the players leave professional sports. That would be nice for the players involved because they would be a bit older and better able to take advantage of their studies.

Re: Alabama tracking students' locations to penalize them for leaving games early

#13

Post by impendia »

harryh wrote: post #9
linuxftw wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is college baseball. I'm firmly in the camp that sports have nothing to do with education, and there should be no association of organized sports and public educational institutions whatsoever. Gym class is one thing, but after-school sports have nothing to do with receiving a basic education.

Why should schools only provide a basic education? There are a great many reasons to participate in after school sports: general health and fitness, teamwork, confidence, community. Schools can't do this too?

Intramural, participatory sports are a wonderful thing. I have never heard anyone argue against them.

They don't require stadiums with amenities that would make royalty blush, nor seven-figure salaries paid to coaches.

Re: Alabama tracking students' locations to penalize them for leaving games early

#14

Post by linuxftw »

harryh wrote: post #9
linuxftw wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is college baseball. I'm firmly in the camp that sports have nothing to do with education, and there should be no association of organized sports and public educational institutions whatsoever. Gym class is one thing, but after-school sports have nothing to do with receiving a basic education.

Why should schools only provide a basic education? There are a great many reasons to participate in after school sports: general health and fitness, teamwork, confidence, community. Schools can't do this too?

The reason is money. Where I'm from, only the rich kids do after school sports. The poor kids have two working parents and they can't afford to miss work to pick them up after school. We're subsidizing the rich kids to play sports with public funds, and that's total BS. Not everyone lives in a city, so they can't just take a public bus home after school and the after-school activity buses were canceled.

Re: Alabama tracking students' locations to penalize them for leaving games early

#15

Post by rorski »

stirbot wrote: post #7

Towards the end of my time as a student at the University of Michigan I stopped buying tickets to the games. Between the crowds, security, drunk strangers, the sun in September or the cold rain in November - it's just more fun and more comfortable to watch at home with friends.

The crowds and drunk strangers are the major reason why people go to games. And tailgating for most sports fans is fun. Of course you get a better view of the game at home, but the live atmosphere can't be replicated by any TV.

Re: Alabama tracking students' locations to penalize them for leaving games early

#16

Post by partialrecall »

linuxftw wrote: post #5
partialrecall wrote: post #3

It's not at all clear to me why we allow American football and universities to have such a perverse relationship, when it's plain to see that football itself has nothing to do with education, except insofar as it's an activity that many students enjoy (but there is no shortage of other non-academic activities that many students share, such as baseball...) And in cases like this, where students are leaving the game ea…

There is college baseball. I'm firmly in the camp that sports have nothing to do with education, and there should be no association of organized sports and public educational institutions whatsoever. Gym class is one thing, but after-school sports have nothing to do with receiving a basic education.

Compare the proportion of MLB players that came from the university system, and the proportion of NFL players that did. Most MLB players come from minor leagues operating independantly from the university system.

I'm not suggesting that universities ban sports clubs. I object to university systems become the primary feeder for corporate professional leagues. American Football and Basketball do it. Baseball and normal Football do not.

Re: Alabama tracking students' locations to penalize them for leaving games early

#17

Post by harryh »

linuxftw wrote: post #14
harryh wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should schools only provide a basic education? There are a great many reasons to participate in after school sports: general health and fitness, teamwork, confidence, community. Schools can't do this too?

The reason is money. Where I'm from, only the rich kids do after school sports. The poor kids have two working parents and they can't afford to miss work to pick them up after school. We're subsidizing the rich kids to play sports with public funds, and that's total BS. Not everyone lives in a city, so they can't just take a public bus home after school and the after-school activity buses were canceled.

You've completely changed your argument. First it was "sports have nothing to do with receiving a basic education." Now you concede that participating in sports can be a big positive, but in some cases a positive only available to the children of richer students.

To that I say:

1) Plenty of poor kids do find ways to participate in school sports. Let's not throw that baby out with the bathwater.

2) Where this is not possible, it would be better to find ways to make it possible than to get rid of something good for everyone.

Re: Alabama tracking students' locations to penalize them for leaving games early

#18

Post by impendia »

bgilroy26 wrote: post #12
partialrecall wrote: post #3

It's not at all clear to me why we allow American football and universities to have such a perverse relationship, when it's plain to see that football itself has nothing to do with education, except insofar as it's an activity that many students enjoy (but there is no shortage of other non-academic activities that many students share, such as baseball...) And in cases like this, where students are leaving the game ea…

I think we will look back on this period of American universities (between say the 1980s and whenever the NFL gets a basic minor league) as a great aberration. College sports were meant to be clubs of enthusiasts from the student body, not a parallel big business. Maybe as an intermediate step, you could have schools that sponsor the teams and offer scholarships for when the players leave professional sports. That wo…

> I think we will look back on this period of American universities as a great aberration.

I hope so. Athletics are only the tip of the iceberg.

Tuition at universities like Harvard, Princeton, etc. runs around $45,000 a year. Even at public universities, it tends to be over $10,000 a year. This is tuition, mind you, not counting room and board. These figures are vastly higher than a generation ago, and are continuing to skyrocket. Needless to say, this is inflicting crippling debt on huge numbers of college students.

Meanwhile, universities are hiring fewer and fewer tenure-track professors; increasingly, the teaching is being done by people working under terrible job conditions. See, for example, this as an example:

https://pankisseskafka.com/2017/07/16/rate-my-jil-2018-this-...

I am an insider -- a college professor at an American university. The current system is thoroughly screwed. We need a big reset.

Re: Alabama tracking students' locations to penalize them for leaving games early

#20

Post by ramphastidae »

partialrecall wrote: post #3

It's not at all clear to me why we allow American football and universities to have such a perverse relationship, when it's plain to see that football itself has nothing to do with education, except insofar as it's an activity that many students enjoy (but there is no shortage of other non-academic activities that many students share, such as baseball...) And in cases like this, where students are leaving the game ea…

If one simply takes the behavior of the vast majority of universities in the US at face value it should be quite clear.

Their priority is not education, it is profit.

That's really it.

Believing otherwise is like believing the priority of health insurance companies is public health or the priority of for-profit prisons is rehabilitation.

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