Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House • Hacker News Board

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#321

Post by amitport » Fri, Sep 13, 2019, 2:39 PM UTC

pnongrata wrote: post #305

amitport wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have jobs, learn, keep ties, and move on to do what they know elsewhere. Talking about private sector, private contractor doing shaded activities for US clients is not the same as "Israel espionage". Israel is a country, does the article suggest evidence that Israel (or someone on its behalf ) have done any espionage in US? Qouting your comment from another thread: "The article is presenting a claim [you are,…

> does the article suggest evidence that Israel (or someone on its behalf) have done any espionage in US? Yes it does, many times. I'd also suggest you read the series on Epstein in which MintPress unravels a deep web of crooked connections between Intelligence and wealthy individiuals. They also go through the Promis software scandal (backdoor installed by Israeli intelligence).

Found no evidence supported examples where the state of Israel was taking part in any of the mentioned events

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#322

Post by mistermann » Fri, Sep 13, 2019, 3:05 PM UTC

habnds wrote: post #308

mistermann wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok....are you accusing Politico of yellow journalism? Have you changed your mind on the speculation issue?

I don't think my point can be made any more clearly. People are misinterpreting the news. It seems like your position is to blame the news, and you seem to think this is a new issue. My position is that this is an inherent factor in production and consumption of the news. Books like Manufacturing Consent, and The Condition of Postmodernity are important to understanding this view and the social processes that support…

> People are misinterpreting the news. It seems like your position is to blame the news, and you seem to think this is a new issue.

Do you deny that it is possible in the English language to write things in a way that are technically and pedantically true, but misleading? I suspect not since you mention Manufacturing Consent, so what is it that you mean?

> I don't think that forcing news agencies or social media companies to change is a real solution. The solution lies in improving people's ability to read news critically across all mediums and to understand the context of media and social conversation and how it subtly serves those in power.

You have two groups: producers of news, and consumers. The former is small, organized, generally well educated, and already subject to regulations. None of this can be said about the latter group. Do you actually think the optimum approach is targeting the latter group? This seems logical to you? (Not to say that we shouldn't also be doing that.....that we aren't is suspicious in itself if you ask me.)

> your characterization of very standard reporting practices as "presenting speculation as fact" and I've clearly explained why above

You aren't even able to acknowledge that talking about something that didn't actually occur is necessarily speculation, it's not surprising we disagree.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#323

Post by dahart » Fri, Sep 13, 2019, 3:27 PM UTC

smhenderson wrote: post #317

dahart wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not suggesting something that will stop law enforcement at all, I am suggesting something that will prevent your phone from connecting to any random device that any person anywhere can drop under a bush. > But LEA are the ones setting up the illegitimate “towers”. The article said it’s a foreign government, Israel, spying on lawmakers, not U.S. law enforcement. You are suggesting the StingRays are ours and not bl…

The article said it’s a foreign government, Israel, spying on lawmakers, not U.S. law enforcement. You are suggesting the StingRays are ours and not black hats? I'm saying how is your device able to distinguish between the two? As in if they lock down the towers then they are effectively preventing you from connecting to StingRays as well. And, hey, I agree with you, I'd love to see some regulation that forced the ha…

> But I'm skeptical ... everyone seems willing to give away everything

Well, I hope you get your optimism back! :) FWIW, I think there's a mountain of evidence pointing in the positive direction. It might not be a majority yet, (and it doesn't take a majoriry!) but there's tons of awareness about the loss of privacy that comes with Facebook and Google, and it's growing and being reported in the mainstream press every day now. HTTPS actually is almost everywhere, and 10 years ago it was almost nowhere. GDPR happened. There are a ton of reasons to think cellular privacy is on the way. No doubt it's frustrating that it isn't here already, and no doubt that it takes time, but personally I feel like skepticism and hopelessness is on the disappearing end of this, and that it's inevitable we'll get better mobile privacy.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#324

Post by amitport » Fri, Sep 13, 2019, 4:13 PM UTC

nickik wrote: post #319

amitport wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A party with an objective "negating the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state " is not the same as voicing disagreement. Almost half of the Knesset voted against 'Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People' basic law, and many regularly voice disagreement with this definition.

When you can arbitrarly define who is part of that democratic state and who is not, it is not democracy. The Palestinans are living under the control of the Jewish state and they have no right to vote.

That's not what being discussed in the above comments.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#325

Post by habnds » Fri, Sep 13, 2019, 4:27 PM UTC

mistermann wrote: post #322

habnds wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think my point can be made any more clearly. People are misinterpreting the news. It seems like your position is to blame the news, and you seem to think this is a new issue. My position is that this is an inherent factor in production and consumption of the news. Books like Manufacturing Consent, and The Condition of Postmodernity are important to understanding this view and the social processes that support…

> People are misinterpreting the news. It seems like your position is to blame the news, and you seem to think this is a new issue. Do you deny that it is possible in the English language to write things in a way that are technically and pedantically true, but misleading? I suspect not since you mention Manufacturing Consent, so what is it that you mean? > I don't think that forcing news agencies or social media comp…

The basic idea is that there is fact and there is truth. When fact is communicated it is intended to build truth in the audience.

When truth is communicated it is the product of the system that produces it. In our system, that truth serves a specific set of individuals, insitutions, and social relations. This isn't an explicit process it is inherent in human relations.

There is no way to "fix" the production of news and truth. What we can improve is how people consume the news

On this specific issue, the original question wasn't "is this speculation" it was "are they presenting this statement as fact". They are not presenting it as fact, it is clearly identified as a quote from a government official.

However, someone with poor reading skills might interpret it as such, which gets back to the original point that the focus should be on improving how people consume the news, not in trying to fix a problem that (imo) cannot be solved.

edit: can't reply to your latest comment. It sounds like your position is now that no one should be allowed to voice opinions about hypothetical situations because that is not a fact. Is expert opinion not a legitimate part of a news story? Or are you saying that the way they presented their opinion made it seem like a fact? I don't agree with either intrepretation.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#326

Post by mistermann » Fri, Sep 13, 2019, 4:49 PM UTC

habnds wrote: post #325

mistermann wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People are misinterpreting the news. It seems like your position is to blame the news, and you seem to think this is a new issue. Do you deny that it is possible in the English language to write things in a way that are technically and pedantically true, but misleading? I suspect not since you mention Manufacturing Consent, so what is it that you mean? > I don't think that forcing news agencies or social media comp…

The basic idea is that there is fact and there is truth. When fact is communicated it is intended to build truth in the audience. When truth is communicated it is the product of the system that produces it. In our system, that truth serves a specific set of individuals, insitutions, and social relations. This isn't an explicit process it is inherent in human relations. There is no way to "fix" the production of news…

> The basic idea is that there is fact and there is truth.

Yes, of course. There is also untruth, and then there is another category: unknown, which often results in speculation, which is then presented as truth. Leaving aside what's the case here, are you able to acknowledge this is possible?

> There is no way to "fix" the production of news and truth.

How are you able to know what isn't possible? How many times in the past have things been declared impossible, until suddenly someone found a way?

> They are not presenting it as fact, it is clearly identified as a quote from a government official.

I have already addressed that specifically: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20955117

>> The article isn't saying that. It's in quotes becuase they are reporting the words of someone they've deemed to be a reputable source for the topic of standard administration behavior.

> Very good point. My claim: "Stating speculation as fact...." itself could be described as sloppy. To clarify: factually, Politico is printing the words of a third party - it is a fact (presumably) that this person made that statement. The statement itself is speculation stated as fact, but the speaker bears the direct guilt for that, not Politico.

> However, someone with poor reading skills might interpret it as such

You seem confident. I challenge you to address my question about how someone can speak factually about the details of something that did not (to their knowledge) actually occur. This is the third time I've pointed this out, if you're confident you are correct, there should be no need to be evasive in conversation should there?

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#327

Post by smhenderson » Fri, Sep 13, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

dahart wrote: post #323

smhenderson wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article said it’s a foreign government, Israel, spying on lawmakers, not U.S. law enforcement. You are suggesting the StingRays are ours and not black hats? I'm saying how is your device able to distinguish between the two? As in if they lock down the towers then they are effectively preventing you from connecting to StingRays as well. And, hey, I agree with you, I'd love to see some regulation that forced the ha…

> But I'm skeptical ... everyone seems willing to give away everything Well, I hope you get your optimism back! :) FWIW, I think there's a mountain of evidence pointing in the positive direction. It might not be a majority yet, (and it doesn't take a majoriry!) but there's tons of awareness about the loss of privacy that comes with Facebook and Google, and it's growing and being reported in the mainstream press every…

Well hell man, you're actually making me feel better! Thanks. Maybe it's just because it's Friday but I'm going to roll with this for a while.

Have a great weekend dahart!

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#328

Post by amitport » Fri, Sep 13, 2019, 5:20 PM UTC

nickik wrote: post #313

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a brief period when the Muslim Brotherhood controlled Egypt. Hezbullah controls a big chunk of southern Lebanon. Hamas controls Gaza. Maybe the facts are getting in the way of your point a little...

> There was a brief period when the Muslim Brotherhood controlled Egypt. In the thats in the past. However they didn't break the peace agreement with Israel. > Hamas controls Gaza Gaza is not a country. > Hezbullah controls a big chunk of southern Lebanon. True on that but without Israel there Hezbollah would have little reason to oppose the US. At the same time the reality is that Syria is militarly over, Jordan has…

Iran.

Iran has physical presence in Syria (Besides the Hezbullah proxy in Syria).

Gaza is an autonomous neighbor ruled by an Islamic terror organization being a country or not does not change the fact that missles are being launched at Israeli civilians every week.

There is still ISIS in Sinai. (And although the Islamic brotherhood lost control of the country, they are not gone)

yes. Jordan is quiet.

"True on that but without Israel there Hezbollah would have little reason to oppose the US." -You really have no idea how religious extremist work. Hezbullah has something against all non-(their kind of)-muslim

"the reality is that Syria is militarly over" -not really. ISIS is pretty much gone there but there is still a lot of fighting and it's not like the winners are the nice guys

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#329

Post by chimi » Fri, Sep 13, 2019, 5:32 PM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #292

chimi wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't make any sense.

To you.

You're speaking from the perspective of a theaticlastic denomination, so it's hard for you to accept another perspective. You have an idea in your mind and it makes sense to you, but you can't explain it or define it.

You're saying it is because it is. It's that way because it's that way and because I believe something, it proves it is that way.

But my belief could be held by someone in a completely different nation experiencing a completely different life, so you haven't added anything to the discussion.

You can't just say, "You're wrong because you believe what you believe and that proves it."

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#330

Post by tracer4201 » Fri, Sep 13, 2019, 5:55 PM UTC

flyinglizard wrote: post #152

tracer4201 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel has unreasonable influence in the US. Speaking against them in any way can be career suicide for American politicians. Dismissing criticism of Israel and the Israeli lobby as anti Semitic is just an attempt to control the conversation, nothing more.

Many Americans care deeply about Israel. What’s wrong with that?

I am not sure how true that is more recently, at least in more liberal circles, although that is really besides the point.

I can criticize the American government and insult my president, and that’s generally more tolerable (although people may disagree) than criticizing the government of Israel.

You won’t be jailed but your reputation will be tarnished because the narrative has been that not supporting Israel 100% unconditionally is equivalent to being anti Semitic.

It’s just a move to shut down any discussion. We can debate gun reform, healthcare, climate bills, etc. we can criticize allies all over the world, but Israel should not be questioned.

If you don’t see the problem with that, you’re probably part of the problem.