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There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work

37signals.com

131–135 of 135 posts

Re: There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work

#131

37signals is at their worst when they adopt this sanctimonious attitude. Say what you want about their juvenile tone, the criticisms on RTFHIG are mostly valid. What are we going to do next? Pillory literary, film and food critics because their insights are inconvenient to the sensitive feelings of creators in those realms? Come on. Creating things for other people has a long, rich history of criticism. Some valid, s…

That these guys are provocative makes their insights more valuable, since they get more attention. If you don't have or can't grow a thick skin, you don't belong in a creative field. It's as simple as that.

Nonsense.

Re: There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work

#132
post #9

I agree that just shitting all over people's work is, well, shitty. But I disagree entirely that the anonymous critic behind Read the Fucking HIG ( http://readthefuckinghig.tumblr.com/ ) is out of line or that this kind of criticism is lacking in merit. Firstly, it's clearly a bit tongue in cheek: "The evil doctor cackled as the thunder struck his lightning rod, giving life and sentience to his unholy creation, splic…

The key difference is that http://www.whatthefuckshouldimakefordinner.com/ and the like aren't using vulgarity in the service of an attack on other people's hard work. And I tend to agree with the article's argument that a criticism of the design without using the design is pointless nerdrage.

But there is this social element to designing an app on OS X that you don't get elsewhere. People will critcise you if your app 'feels wrong' or 'feels un-mac-like'.

This is why writing software for the mac is harder than the PC. On the PC (or especially Linux) you can just do whatever you like, whatever makes sense to you.

But here's the thing, the reason that the Mac feels so 'intuitive' is because - if you're doing it right - you have to implement six different ways to do anything. That means that the second or third way someone tries to do something will work, so it feels instant. On the PC if you try 20 ways to do something, and it doesn't work, you feel frustrated.

This is a lot more work. It is much easier on the PC because if you can't be arsed supporting say... drag and drop, no one is going to call you on it. On the Mac, you will be pilloried. Saying it's not fair on people because of their hard work is to commit two errors:

(1) to not understand Mac culture, where developers are expected to put in the extra effort

(2) to falsely label something as hard work when they clearly haven't done their homework, and have taken shortcuts to avoid putting in the real hard work

If I ask someone to cut my lawn, and they go over it with a roller in order to flatten it because they can't be arsed and it's just the same... I will not praise them for their ingenuity or hard work.

They haven't finished the task.

Also, there is a third point

(3) to commit the error of thinking that the software is finished and set in stone forever

Software is change. But how will they know to change if no one points out to them the error of their ways?

Re: There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the people complaining about complaints over UI being about style instead of substance are themselves complaining about argumentative style instead of substance.

You still do not get the point here. His arguments may be valid, I don't know I never read the HIG nor am I a designer. But there is a way to do constructive criticism without belittling the efforts of other developers. He is acting like a "Chinese mom". This line from HN guidelines illustrate my point: When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is an idiotic thing to say; 1 +…

You're belittling RTFHIG like a "WASP mom" for belittling app authors like a "Chinese mom".

There's more than one way to show attitude, and politeness is one of them. It's an affectation, no different from RTFHIG's all-lowercase ironic outrage.

Re: There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work

#134
I'm going to have to disagree. Apple make it incredibly easy to make apps which fit with the look, feel and experience of the rest of OS X. The Human Interface Guidelines are clear and specific on how to do most things. Cocoa's APIs and the Interface Builder make it far easier to follow the conventions than to reinvent the wheel. There is absolutely a right way and a wrong way to implement most UI features in Mac software. The criticisms in RTFHIG aren't simply that the apps featured are ugly, but that they do things that Apple explicitly states that you shouldn't do in a Mac app. Doing it the right way requires nothing more than the willingness to read and follow the explicit instructions given in the HIGs. I have absolutely no respect for anyone who has so little respect for software.

Writing software is unquestionably difficult, there is a great deal to learn and most developers have a long adolescence before they start writing really good software. It's also true however that the proliferation of bad software has serious negative externalities on the developer community. It feels absolutely terrible to submit a lovingly-crafted piece of software to an app store only to see it swamped by thoughtless, careless crapware. We would be foolish to ignore the importance of signal-to-noise and the ability of noise to render a communications channel useless. For people who make their living through the app store, this is absolutely a matter of survival.

Re: There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the people complaining about complaints over UI being about style instead of substance are themselves complaining about argumentative style instead of substance.

You still do not get the point here. His arguments may be valid, I don't know I never read the HIG nor am I a designer. But there is a way to do constructive criticism without belittling the efforts of other developers. He is acting like a "Chinese mom". This line from HN guidelines illustrate my point: When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is an idiotic thing to say; 1 +…

But even 'constructive' criticism is frequently derided here. That's why I made the point about speculative redesigns. No matter how polite or constructive you try to get, it seems a large chunk of this site will wave it off as being only as useful as reporting your gut feeling on whether something 'works' or 'doesn't'. (As only the designer facing actual decisions knows why they made certain compromises and has to deal with all the real permutations, etc)

You can narrow your argument to just "can't we all just be polite" and have a nice, if naive, point. But I disagree that the core complaints in the article or this thread are restricted to, or even primarily about, the tone.

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