Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B • Hacker News Board

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#171

Post by elbasti » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:14 PM UTC

ganitarashid wrote: post #56

What is wrong with enforcing border security laws? Curious why you think less of him for supporting those efforts.

In principle, nothing. In practice, current policy at the southern US border is directly responsible for acts which are unconscionably cruel and inhumane.

Separating children, babies and toddlers from their parents. Keeping children in bed-less, 24/7 lit rooms. Not giving sanitary pads to menstruating girls, etc. The list of atrocities is growing, depressing and unforgivable. Apprehended migrants are treated in ways that most humans would consider too cruel for dogs.

It is because of these policies that enforcing border security is immoral. Because of these policies, any increase in enforcement has a direct, causal, traceable and immediate consequence of increasing human suffering.

"Law and order vs chaos" is a false dichotomy. There can be peaceful lawlessness and cruel law and everything in between.

Anduril, anyone working there, and anyone backing them, will now be directly responsible for an increase in human suffering. I will never pitch A16Z again.

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#172

Post by Strom » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:17 PM UTC

ndarwincorn wrote: post #163

ekianjo wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eliminating borders is a recipe for disaster. You can't expect your country to remain the same if you let millions or dozens of millions of people freely coming in from different cultures and backgrounds. Immigration is all about "how much is still OK to let in (trade-off between risks and benefits)", and once you say "whoever wants to enter", it's hard to take this kind of opinion seriously.

> it's hard to take this kind of opinion seriously The economic argument for free migration is identical to the one for free trade[1]. Do you find it hard to take free trade advocates seriously? [1] https://contexts.org/articles/the-economics-of-migration/

If free trade ends up being bad for a country, it's much easier to change that compared to deporting some insane amount of people. Especially when the migrant home country can't even be determined.

Having a constant flow of immigrants is fine, however I think it's important to monitor how it affects the vitals of the country and not crash its welfare system etc.

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#173

Post by lliamander » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:20 PM UTC

ndarwincorn wrote: post #163

ekianjo wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eliminating borders is a recipe for disaster. You can't expect your country to remain the same if you let millions or dozens of millions of people freely coming in from different cultures and backgrounds. Immigration is all about "how much is still OK to let in (trade-off between risks and benefits)", and once you say "whoever wants to enter", it's hard to take this kind of opinion seriously.

> it's hard to take this kind of opinion seriously The economic argument for free migration is identical to the one for free trade[1]. Do you find it hard to take free trade advocates seriously? [1] https://contexts.org/articles/the-economics-of-migration/

The risks of immigration (of any sort) include:

- spread of disease

- erosion of social trust due to conflicting cultures

- erosion of other social capital if immigrant culture has a higher time preference than native culture

- identity politics (people vote along ethnic rather than ideological lines)

Now, there are certainly benefits to immigration as well, but they must be put in balance.

I agree that trade and immigration have many parallels, but there is still a difference between an economic transaction at arms-distance vs. inviting someone into your home.

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#174

Post by ndarwincorn » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:21 PM UTC

cambalache wrote: post #148

mc32 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It becomes a bit of a tragedy of the commons. People elect awful governments who promise paradise and country’s economy craters resulting in mass exodus (Venezuela). Why should Colombians or Chileans (or Americans) shoulder their poor choices of government and civil society? If some country wants to grow unsustainably and follow unhealthy land use habits and then have problems, why should others shoulder that (outsid…

You should not..Nobody will force you.But as a Venezuelan is my duty to mention some reasons to counterbalance your POV: 1- No country is an homogenous group.In the case of Venezuela after Chavez first election the country basically was splitted 50/50 . In Maduro's case the split is easily 90/10 against him.When you refuse to help venezuelans you refuse to help a gigantic group of people who did not choose Maduro at…

> If markets are going to be free an open ,the.movement of.person should be too.

Facts.

Thanks for coming on here and helping balance the rampant xenophobia in this thread. Please know that some of us in the USA are aware of how our government has treated and continues to treat the Western hemisphere, and that we're doing the best we can to change it.

Unfortunately, comments like the one you replied to reflect the majority opinion. Or at least the more vocal one.

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#175

Post by gotoeleven » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:21 PM UTC

sgpl wrote: post #135

4bpp wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The standard counterargument is that not allowing mobility is what enabled us to have any nice places to begin with, in an "ant and grasshopper" way. Building a "nice" and affluent country is generally a multigenerational project involving plenty of individual sacrifice for the sake of a future that the sacrificing individuals will rarely themselves experience. If Norwegians knew that they all could move to any count…

This counterargument conveniently ignores the history of 'European colonization of America from the early 16th century until the incorporation of the colonies into the United States of America [0]'. I'm not the most well-versed on these topic (colonization / mobility) but it would seem that that mobility is what helped shape America into what it is today rather than "not allowing mobility". [0] https://en.wikipedia.o…

I think you two both agree, actually. How did colonization work out for the indians?

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#176

Post by neetdeth » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:22 PM UTC

zerr wrote: post #159

prepend wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I applaud your honesty in expressing a desire for open borders. I think culture would benefit from more open and honest discussions on this topic as all the double speak makes it frustrating and boring to discuss, normally. I’m not really very interested in borders one way or the other but national borders certainly aren’t “artificial.” There are certainly some artificial aspects (lines of longtitude, etc) but border…

The thing is, everyone should have a right to change countries/cultures as they want - it shouldn't be determined by the birth lottery.

The "birth lottery" is a metaphysical construct. There is no such lottery, in which souls are assigned at random to bodies. Each human being is a rooted thing with a multigenerational history which is (in the typical case) deliberately created. Some stochastic variability is at work in this process, but it is by no means random.

Every nation must have the right to choose the people it wishes to assimilate and those it doesn't. I should not be allowed to go kicking in doors and demanding acceptance. This is the fundamental basis of sovereignty.

The only exception is that a nation must accept those born to its own members, as stateless persons create a potential burden to others.

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#177

Post by stickfigure » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:24 PM UTC

_iyig wrote: post #90

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most fentanyl in the U.S. comes in via the unsecured border with Mexico "Unsecured" is being asked to do an awful lot of work in that sentence. Smugglers aren't driving trucks full of contraband over the open desert through areas where Trump's (or Palmer's) "wall," whether real or virtual, would stop them. They're smuggling them through established checkpoints. If you want to reduce the drug trade, better technique…

>Most farmers will tell you that Americans won't work for the low wages that they feel they have to pay farm hands, so they have to hire those undocumented workers. If cheap labor was unavailable, would American farms shut down? I don’t think so. I think they’d raise wages until Americans were willing to work for them, and pass the price along to consumers. I think the status quo (undocumented laborers working for lo…

If cheap labor was unavailable, would American farms shut down?

If you increase cost it's going to have an effect. Some farms will shut down, some will automate, some will "move" (by way of imports) to other countries where the working conditions are worse.

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#178

Post by close04 » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:26 PM UTC

zerr wrote: post #159

prepend wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I applaud your honesty in expressing a desire for open borders. I think culture would benefit from more open and honest discussions on this topic as all the double speak makes it frustrating and boring to discuss, normally. I’m not really very interested in borders one way or the other but national borders certainly aren’t “artificial.” There are certainly some artificial aspects (lines of longtitude, etc) but border…

The thing is, everyone should have a right to change countries/cultures as they want - it shouldn't be determined by the birth lottery.

> it shouldn't be determined by the birth lottery

This chips away at the advantages those winners have particularly when they don't have much else going for them (see the many low education, low income people being vocal opponents of any kind of immigration into their country). Which is why a lot of those people see someone changing country as a big threat. It's any group's right to choose who they want to let in and they will use this to make sure that either the newcomers pull them forward too, or they don't get to move at all around that group.

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#179

Post by dmix » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:28 PM UTC

mrguyorama wrote: post #141

dang wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The submitted title ("Palmer Luckey's new startup, a virtual US/Mexico wall, valued $1B by A16Z") broke the site guidelines, which ask: " Please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize. " We've reverted it to the original now. Submitters: Rewriting titles has a massive effect on discussion, so please don't do that unless the original title is misleading or linkbait. https://new…

>misleading or linkbait Those are massively subjective concepts, especially in the modern political climate. Have you considered adding examples or further discussing this point in the guidelines?

It should be pretty obvious to anyone using the internet for long to identify what's flamebait.

If you need examples just look at the political sections of Twitter and Reddit where all sense of civility and intellectual debate has been abandoned. Or look at the headlines of clickbait news sites like Buzzfeed and Vice which target that demographic and do the opposite. There's no shortage of examples kicking around.

Re: Anduril, a startup from Oculus founder Palmer Luckey, now valued at $1B

#180

Post by barry-cotter » Thu, Sep 12, 2019, 10:30 PM UTC

zerr wrote: post #159

prepend wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I applaud your honesty in expressing a desire for open borders. I think culture would benefit from more open and honest discussions on this topic as all the double speak makes it frustrating and boring to discuss, normally. I’m not really very interested in borders one way or the other but national borders certainly aren’t “artificial.” There are certainly some artificial aspects (lines of longtitude, etc) but border…

The thing is, everyone should have a right to change countries/cultures as they want - it shouldn't be determined by the birth lottery.

I too am vigorously in favor of communities right to expel people. Being born to American or Saudi citizens shouldn’t give any special rights if you the community decides they’d be better off without you.

Less sarcastically we have no evidence that democracy, unrestricted immigration and welfare states are compatible. I’ll happily bite the bullet and see massive restrictions on immigrants’ and even their children’s rights to access the state’s largess as the potential welfare gains are enormous. But that’s probably among the least important and disruptive changes of open borders. The EU, Canada or the US could easily attract immigrants in similar numbers to their total current inhabitants. You think their politics could cope with that well? California can’t even force the amalgamation of the Bay Area into a single city or copy working models of dealing with the homeless. The US can’t copy international rail infrastructure. The EU can’t get it together enough to pay Erdogan his bribe to not let the Syrians into Greece and the rest of the EU. Canada barely has an internal market in goods and services. Politics doesn’t work very well as is. How will it work with a sudden huge increase in non-native non-citizen population?