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Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#251

Post by a1369209993 »

kube-system wrote: post #215
gambiting wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is the same though. With pinball you pay 20c or whatever, and you get to play the game. That's it. It's like paying $100 for an entry ticket into a bike race - you pay, you get to do the activity, the outcome is "random" in that it only depends on your own skill and external factors. With sticker packs the contents are truly random, there is no skill involved, you literally don't know what you are bu…

Pinball games at the time often paid out prizes and didn’t always do so based solely on skill. The shift towards the modern idea of what pinball machines are like today was a reaction to laws threatening to ban them.

Fair enough, but in that case it's a bit disingenuous to say those claims were being made about "pinball games" without qualification, because what you describe is not what someone today[0] thinks of when you say "pinball".

0: citation: myself and gambiting and barneygale at a minimum

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#252

Post by save_ferris »

jason46 wrote: post #220
save_ferris wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One major difference to point out is that fortnite doesn’t have loot boxes, you know exactly what you’re getting when spending their online currency. I keep hearing about the social aspects behind these games (kids who don’t have skins in fortnite are bullied at school, etc.) It sounds like goods that make a child popular are just digital these days as opposed to physical items like Pokémon cards.

I feel 20 or so years ago kids that spent money on something that didn't provide a clear benefit would have been bullied. My wife was a gamer, when my son first asked for a gift card to buy a skin it was fun watching him try to explain that there is no benefit and it only changes the look. My wife kept asking him why do you want this?

You and I grew up in very, very different worlds then. Most things that made kids in my community were purely consumerist.

Air Jordans, Pokémon cards, brand name clothes like hollister and AE, and then popular phones like the razer were ubiquitous among those that were popular. Kids who didn’t have those things were bullied relentlessly.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#253

Post by isk517 »

esotericn wrote: post #129
gambiting wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean when I was a kid you'd get this sticker album for your favourite thing(be it football players, star wars, whatever) and I'd always beg mum to get me yet another sticker pack so I could complete my collection. There were always stickers that I really really wanted and yeah, the disappointment of going through a few packs and not getting what you wanted was very real. I think ultimately, this is the same thing -…

I don't really think "just digitized" captures the problem with these boxes. Imagine a fairly boring interface that has Pokemon cards or football stickers in. Like your hands holding them and trading them and sticking them on things. Now contrast that to the loot box stuff that has exciting music, flashing lights, A-B tested into oblivion, the money comes from some ethereal 'account' rather than involving an actual e…

Not just that, digitized also means that it is available for purchase pretty much anywhere and at anytime verses in a specific place during business hours. Also unlike stickers and collectible cards these games get to advertise their newest goods everything you interact with the product.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#254

Post by cameronbrown »

daemin wrote: post #109
cameronbrown wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think cosmetics are a much better alternative to purchasing advantages (that'd never work for a PC game anyway) but keep kids away from gambling absolutely.

The problem is that for a lot of games you can't just directly purchase the cosmetic items, you have to open many loot boxes in order to try and "win" the cosmetic item that you desire.

That's a problem for the business people to figure out. Items which make it easier to play are a massive red flag to avoid a game and they're always right.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#255

Post by bsder »

davemp wrote: post #235
bsder wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If we ban loot boxes in video games, why dont we ban Magic/Pokemon card boosters that you can buy from physical shops? I don't necessarily disagree. However, if I want card X for Magic/Pokemon, I can look up the card online, find its value, and buy the card . Sure, I can buy booster packs, but they are not the only way to get the card I want. With online games, loot boxes are often the only way to get what you want…

> However, if I want card X for Magic/Pokemon, I can look up the card online, find its value, and buy the card. Sure, I can buy booster packs, but they are not the only way to get the card I want. If anything, Magic teaches you that gambling is usually the worst way to get the card you want.

Although ... I'm glad I'm not a gambling man...

Back a while ago, I remembered my MtG friends complaining that they couldn't get some box (Modern Masters?) because they ran out immediately. I was at my hometown and ran into a dedicated gaming store owner who vastly overestimated the wealth of his rural clients in buying higher end MtG stuff (or maybe he didn't--I did spend a lot of money after all).

So, I bought all his stock--something like 10 boxes at almost $3000, IIRC, (there is more than one reason they call it cardboard crack) and brought them back.

I kept a couple boxes for gifts and sold the rest to very happy MtG players.

Every single box had a card at the time valued at more than the price of the whole box--plus a smattering of other fairly valuable cards.

Since then, my MtG friends make me pick out any "lottery" things they buy. My luck is decent, but it has never been that good again.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#256

Post by piokoch »

ian0 wrote: post #6

Myself and my son play Apex legends. Its an online multiplayer game thats free, but you can optionally pay to unlock cosmetic items like character outfits (skins) etc. He came into some cash recently courtesy of the tooth fairy and asked if we could buy a skin for his favorite character. I said ok. However after id purchased some in game coins we realised that we couldn't actually buy the skin he wanted, instead we h…

Yes, this is horrible and more and more toys, games are like this. That's why such products should get the same license as gambling companies.

They should pay for license, they should have proper responsible gaming policy, ability to self-exclude, in case of products for kids, their parents should be informed that given product is a gambling product (older parents might not be aware of this), etc.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#257

Post by dragontamer »

droithomme wrote: post #244
dragontamer wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its called a skinnerbox: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber Fully grown ADULTS fall prey to skinnerboxes (aka: Slot Machines) all the time. Its basic human psychology (heck: the skinnerbox is effective on virtually all Birds and Mammals). Its extremely fundamental to the function of the modern biological brain. Its literally a "brain hack". This isn't some "willpower away" sort of training. Th…

It's not as fatalistic as you suggest: that randomly offered rewards always lead to complete zombie slave status in 100% of subjects, there's no way out, and the situation is hopeless. Studies have found propensities not absolutes across all subjects and species. For example, river otters are notoriously difficult to train using operant conditioning because they are extremely curious, but also bore easily. Getting th…

> Addictions can be hard to overcome for many.

I don't think this is "addiction". Its clearly operant conditioning. You aren't going to suffer physical ailments like an Alcoholic or Heroin-abuser (or heck: even a coffee-drinker) would if you "stop pushing the button"

I'm pretty sure that our concepts of "addiction" (including "willpower") are mostly pseudo-science. While psychologists are carefully studying the issues, the mass media needs to keep making movies and stories, and those stories do NOT reflect upon reality very well. Even well-researched stories, like Inside Out, or Finding Nemo (Dory's character is a very well researched example of memory loss) may end up obsolete as research moves forward. (IIRC: Inside Out was initially based on some psychology research. But the research already dramatically changed by the time Inside Out was out of production, and it was too late to change the story at that point).

The sad truth is: most of the psychology the layman knows is wrong. Its "story" psychology, created for drama and storytelling. Not "real" psychology, which actually predicts human behavior.

-----------

In any case, I believe that lootboxes are a clear, and simple, example of operant conditioning. We know how to "deprogram" operant conditioning. You either:

1. Remove the reward entirely -- Without a reward, and people will stop. It may take 10,000 cycles, but eventually all subjects stop when the reward is fully taken out of the picture. Its surprising how long subjects will continue their behavior in the absence of a reward, but it will eventually stop.

2. Introduce punishments -- Shock the user, or cause other forms of pain. If the punishment is greater than the reward, the subject will eventually stop.

As far as I know, those are the two ways to stop a conditioned behavior. Social pressure may probably serve as #2, but in my experience, it puts a lot of strain on the social relationships (ex: subject may just start lying instead of telling the truth about their behavior). In effect, using social pressure to stop #2 may only cause the subject to become more trained in the act of lying.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#258

Post by reroute1 »

esotericn wrote: post #129
gambiting wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean when I was a kid you'd get this sticker album for your favourite thing(be it football players, star wars, whatever) and I'd always beg mum to get me yet another sticker pack so I could complete my collection. There were always stickers that I really really wanted and yeah, the disappointment of going through a few packs and not getting what you wanted was very real. I think ultimately, this is the same thing -…

I don't really think "just digitized" captures the problem with these boxes. Imagine a fairly boring interface that has Pokemon cards or football stickers in. Like your hands holding them and trading them and sticking them on things. Now contrast that to the loot box stuff that has exciting music, flashing lights, A-B tested into oblivion, the money comes from some ethereal 'account' rather than involving an actual e…

The flashing lights are a nice bonus, but the comparison to trading cards is still valid imo. It's basically the same thing. Yes the technology has advanced, but the risks are the same.

Companies that sold trading cards, stickers, whatever did the same marketing and testing as video game companies.

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#259

Post by reroute1 »

ljm wrote: post #229
gambiting wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean when I was a kid you'd get this sticker album for your favourite thing(be it football players, star wars, whatever) and I'd always beg mum to get me yet another sticker pack so I could complete my collection. There were always stickers that I really really wanted and yeah, the disappointment of going through a few packs and not getting what you wanted was very real. I think ultimately, this is the same thing -…

The thing about sticker packs, Pokémon cards, etc. is that you could trade the ones you didn't want with your friends, so even getting a shiny that you already had was exciting because then you had something that you could swap for another shiny or a couple of lower-value cards/stickers. You'd naturally come to the point where some stickers were much more frequent than others so you'd end up with this little schoolya…

Lots of loot boxes and in game cosmetics can often be traded in the same way though?

For example in Dota 2 people can trade skins for heroes they don't play. Isn't that the same thing as trading a pokemon you don't want?

Re: Ban kids from loot box gambling in games

#260

Post by nscalf »

I came into this thread with a strong opinion: Ban loot boxes. I think they weaken the value of all gaming, and I think they take advantage of people. Plenty of things have been banned for attempting to take advantage of people.

Going through this thread, I am softer on the view, but I think there is two big differences between what most people here are saying. First, with cards, you have a physical exchange of money---kids see that money going away and they can't just hit "OK" in a game again to spend money. Second, with online games like demonbae mentioned, you are spending your own money, not your parents money. YOU reap the consequences, not your parents bank account.

I'm less convinced these need to be banned, but I still don't see any upside for people who are not benefiting by getting as much money as possible to be spent in their game.

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