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Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

politico.com

41–50 of 346 posts

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#41
post #19

> The U.S. government concluded within the last two years that Israel was most likely behind > But unlike most other occasions I don't know if im spoiled by Wikipedia, or jaded from age, or wisened by age, or rightfully lost trust in the media, or wrongfully lost trust in the media, but i find myself entirely unwilling to accept to accept claims like this. Citation. Needed. In order to believe this article, i need to…

Citations in journalism is a really interesting thing. Unlike science, where at least in theory, everything is built from the ground up using first principles or built upon raw data collected, the "raw data" of journalism is just various types of conversations with people the journalist then has to verify, and gauge the reliability of. In other cases it's the journalists first person experience of an event. Citations…

Wikipedia does context amazingly well. If I go to the Wikipedia article on sandals I not only get information on sandals, I get information about why people might want to look at an article on sandals (eg, infectious disease control) and if I care to drill a little deeper a list of all the people who cared enough about sandals to edit the article. And a talk page to cover any controversies although sandals appear to be an uncontroversial subject.

Jumping to this article however I lose 80% of that. This article is light on that data and metadata. I can't tell much about the author (I can see his last 5 articles though) and I certainly can't tell what is primary research or not. Did this journalist see the 'cell-phone surveillance devices'? Is he working off a press release? Are there challenges to this narrative viewpoint? Is this written more out of a sense of entertainment or is there an effort being made not to embellish facts?

I'm going to guess that GP meant 'Citation needed' in a slightly broader sense than just name-the-source. There is a whole culture of open metadata and transparency that has grown up in the last two decades that is simply better than journalism. Wikipedia is trustworthy because the slightest suspicion can be investigated. It is frustrating to think that we are going to rely on journalism for political information when the articles are simply devoid of political context in the sense that is freely available on Wikipedia.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#42
post #32

What does the US get out of the special relationship with Israel? Anti-Israel sources mostly talk about the strong Jewish lobbies, while pro-Israel sources mostly cite being the only democracy in the region. Both seem misleading at best. What's the US's argument from self-interest for tolerating this kind of thing?

You misunderstand the power dynamics in this alliance: Israel is the boss, US is the muscle. So even if US is gaining nothing from it the alliance will continue as long as Israel needs it. If you try to end it, you'll be called antisemites, Holocaust deniers, etc. until you submit.

Israel is absolutely not the boss. The US only started caring about Israel after the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, when they clearly demonstrated they could effectively suppress their Arab neighbours with military might. It is the same as supporting the most powerful warlord in any other state (Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, the Shah of Iran, countless others), but projected over an entire region that also happens to contain Saudi Arabia.

This is also why the US has been funneling israel billions of dollars in aid to develop its military industry over the past few decades. US has gained plenty from this alliance, it has projected power in the Middle East through an ally that is terrifyingly overprepared for war, allowing it to maintain the artificial order in the Middle East and petrodollar dominance.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#43
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstand the power dynamics in this alliance: Israel is the boss, US is the muscle. So even if US is gaining nothing from it the alliance will continue as long as Israel needs it. If you try to end it, you'll be called antisemites, Holocaust deniers, etc. until you submit.

> If you try to end it, you'll be called antisemites, Holocaust deniers You're downvoted, but this has absolutely been my observation as well

He's not wrong. They don't provide anything we couldn't get elsewhere.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#46

> The U.S. government concluded within the last two years that Israel was most likely behind > But unlike most other occasions I don't know if im spoiled by Wikipedia, or jaded from age, or wisened by age, or rightfully lost trust in the media, or wrongfully lost trust in the media, but i find myself entirely unwilling to accept to accept claims like this. Citation. Needed. In order to believe this article, i need to…

Nothing about this article seems untrustworthy. Politico is a highly trustworthy paper that had real reporters who talk to real people all over the US government and it references real events and people and papers all throughout this article. Your comment seems out of place.

> Nothing about this article seems untrustworthy.

You got it reversed. What about it seems trustworthy? Russel's teapot and all that, the one making claims has to prove it, not others have to disprove it.

> Politico is a highly trustworthy paper

Trust-proof should be per-concrete-article, not per publication.

> Your comment seems out of place.

[Citation needed] :-) -- Seriously, I don't see anything wrong. Okay, you dislike the opinion, I get it.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#47
post #6

> Israel doesn’t conduct espionage operations in the United States, period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

Lol I find that extremely hard to believe. I would bet every dollar I had that we (the US) do spy on Israeli soil.

Last line of the article:

> As for Israel’s recent surveillance of the White House, one of the former senior U.S. intelligence officials acknowledged it raised security concerns but joked, “On the other hand, guess what we do in Tel Aviv?”

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both quotes cite their sources — “former senior U.S. officials with knowledge of the matter” — in the parts of the sentence you cut off: > The U.S. government concluded within the last two years that Israel was most likely behind the placement of cell-phone surveillance devices that were found near the White House and other sensitive locations around Washington, D.C., according to three former senior U.S. officials w…

>according to three former senior U.S. officials with knowledge of the matter. It would matter if there were any substance to the claims, it might make sense. But instead, the article goes a step further as you quote here: >> The former senior intelligence official criticized how the administration handled the matter, remarking on the striking difference from past administrations, which likely would have at a very mi…

It is not so hard to imagine why the source would like to remain anonymous.

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#49

What does the US get out of the special relationship with Israel? Anti-Israel sources mostly talk about the strong Jewish lobbies, while pro-Israel sources mostly cite being the only democracy in the region. Both seem misleading at best. What's the US's argument from self-interest for tolerating this kind of thing?

I highly recommend “The Israel Lobby” by John J. Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen M. Walt of Harvard:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UZQIF6/

“They describe the remarkable level of material and diplomatic support that the United States provides to Israel and argues that this support cannot be fully explained on either strategic or moral grounds. This exceptional relationship is due largely to the political influence of a loose coalition of individuals and organizations that actively work to shape U.S. foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction. Mearsheimer and Walt provocatively contend that the lobby has a far-reaching impact on America's posture throughout the Middle East—in Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, and toward the Israeli-Palestinian conflict—and the policies it has encouraged are in neither America's national interest nor Israel's long-term interest. The lobby's influence also affects America's relationship with important allies and increases dangers that all states face from global jihadist terror.”

Re: Israel accused of planting mysterious spy devices near the White House

#50

What does the US get out of the special relationship with Israel? Anti-Israel sources mostly talk about the strong Jewish lobbies, while pro-Israel sources mostly cite being the only democracy in the region. Both seem misleading at best. What's the US's argument from self-interest for tolerating this kind of thing?

* An excuse to subsidize the US defence industry

* Improvements to US military technology (Israel tweaks stuff and then we use their tweaks)

* Anti-terrorism training and expertise (we started caring a lot more in 2001; they've been dealing with it longer than that)

* A liberal democracy in a part of the world without any others (whether or not you value this is up to you, but many Americans do)

* Intelligence

* A lot of American tech companies have offices in Israel, which means we have an interest in its stability and prosperity

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