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California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

nytimes.com

671–680 of 754 posts

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better position compared to what? > a guaranteed minimum wage A min-wage guarantee implies Uber and Lyft will tell you when and where to drive because it would demolish the fundamental mechanism we drivers use to allocate ourselves. Otherwise we would all clump up in a parking lot somewhere trying to insulate ourselves from the costs of driving people around while collecting $10/hr. > possibility for unemployment ben…

> I cringe every time somebody says "Oh but Lyft treats drivers so much better than Uber, right?" I'm somebody who genuinely thought this was the case. Would you mind elaborating?

Ok, here's the rant I really try not to give to my passengers. I apologize for the length. TL;DR - Do you want to date an emotionally unavailable a-hole, or an emotionally manipulative a-hole? Pick your poison.

Lyft's president once said regarding Uber, "We're not the nice guys. We're a better boyfriend." This statement describes Lyft so much better than I ever could. They don't care about doing the right thing, they probably don't even know what the right thing is anymore, their internal sense of morality is pegged to whether or not they can keep people away from Uber.

As a driver, they have the same business model so the fundamentals of the job are exactly the same. Most of the differences are either window dressing, support quality, or bonus-related.

Uber's just kind of cold. Dealing with support is something you try not to do. It feels like they're cutting costs in their support department and they're not interested in convincing you otherwise. It's kind of like they sent you a picture of a middle finger on your third day of work and from that point on you've known the deal.

Lyft is very touchy-feely, they have events so you can eat donuts and they send a lot of emails talking about how you're a member of a community, etc. They also shame you for doing things detrimental to the community, like if you don't accept a ride. Long-term you start to realize it's all very manipulative, to the extent I've started thinking of their logo as a pink snake.

They kind of move and shift things so it's hard to tell what's going on. Especially with their bonuses, look at this[0], where do these numbers come from? 165 rides a week? That's probably 7 12 hour days. But nobody's hitting that, the middle tier might be doable, but not while driving for Uber, too, so you turn off your Uber app for the week and do 7 10's for Lyft. Next week you'll get different numbers, different goals. It's always shifting, always making you think "well, I might make an extra $50 if I don't drive for Uber this week..." Then after a few months you realize you're driving 30% more and making 20% less. And it just kind of happened while you weren't looking, while you were trying to hit these bonuses.

It also used to be that everybody got the same bonuses, but now they personalize them just for you. Because they care. I have no idea what bonuses other drivers are getting at this point, but for many or most drivers the job doesn't work without them (rental program is $1,000/month) so it ends up being an effective lever for controlling drivers.

Or the treatment of XL drivers, Uber lets the driver turn off regular rides but Lyft says that's just not possible and instead tries to "keep [the driver] busy[1]." The notion of keeping independent contractors busy is a strange one. This seems so clearly anti-competitive I don't know how it's even legal. They don't come out and say they'd rather you didn't drive for UberXL, they just want to keep you busy and if that keeps you off Uber then it's a coincidence that never crossed their mind. Why Uber isn't filing a lawsuit over this is beyond me.

Eventually you get sick of Lyft's games and decide to just drive for Uber full-time and within a day you're shaking your head wondering if Uber is even trying at all. Like, at all. So you drive for both. Then you realize if you just turn off Uber for the rest of the week you can hit this bonus on Lyft....

[0] - https://i2.wp.com/therideshareguy.com/wp-content/uploads/201... [1] - https://help.lyft.com/hc/en-us/articles/115012926367-How-to-...

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah, that's an interesting trap to be in. It's not dissimilar to pushing wages down in order to qualify for high ACA subsidies. The way the system is set up, there's quite a tax cliff...especially for older people (the difference between $0/month and $1200ish for an individual).

If you have wealth, you can essentially create an income, on paper, to look like whatever you want, to meet ACA subsidy qualifications. Here's an example of a practical application: You could rent, or buy a home with your wealth. If you buy a home outright, you won't have the monthly mortgage or rental payment (you'll have property taxes, but let's assume those are far lower than an ongoing monthly rent check). Withd…

Another take is to put money in investments with no taxable event (I think that Berkshire Hathaway is one) and live off of savings in the meanwhile. Outright home ownership (as you mention) is another one. Regular and tax deferred savings get treated even more differently than normal.

I don't doubt that for people with some money, it'll be common to countdown using similar strategies for 5-10 years until you hit the magic 65 age. Given the difficulties in staying employed until full retirement age for programmers, it's quite a gift.

In another couple of decades, a lot of people get to do the pay-down fandango where couples split their assets so that one doesn't pauperize the other (via annuities).

All brought to you by the market warping body called government.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#673
post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. eBay makes selling happen on their platform, does that make eBay a store and all sellers employees of eBay? Uber also is a technology company just like eBay.

There is a crucial difference; ebay Sellers can pick their customers. They can perform the same sale outside ebay. Customers can pick who to buy an item from. Ebay doesn't take a cut of the sale either, they take a charge for displaying the item on their store page, which the vendor also has to advertise and design on their own.

Have you even used eBay? It is against the TOS to solicit or conduct a sale on eBay offline, to bypass eBay, and eBay absolutely takes a 10%+ cut off sales called the Final Value Fee. eBay also enforces how sellers use their platform including using incentives, rules, and feedback scores to show or not show listings or even kick them off. Similarly, Uber riders can reject a driver as can drivers reject a rider for any reason so they choose. Try again.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might be reading it wrong... everything in law is in a grey area until further defined in court, but legal documents should typically be read with full boolean logic applied to all the words: "control and direction" - sure, they give you direction. But do they control what tools you use, when and how you do it? "connection with the performance of the work" - Are they controlling the final deliverable, or the perf…

> I suspect that software consultants have a reasonable argument that they control their own work, while their clients have control over the acceptance of the final deliverable, so the above points are not fulfilled. What if the consultant is forced to attend every single meeting the client (via PM/other manager) decides to schedule? That seems to violate the spirit of "control over performance" part of it. Curious b…

That's not really how performance is likely intended to be interpreted here. It's more along the lines of if the client told you "you have to code exactly from X time to Y time using our computer at Z location". At that point you're basically an employee rather than a contractor providing a service/product. Meetings are related to, but not the sole component of performance of work here.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#675
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will probably come as a surprise to you (it did me several years ago), that it’s not simply up to you and the company hiring you if you are considered a freelancer. This is not a matter of billable vs guaranteed hours. It’s a classification based on employee control over the person in question. In fact, if you were micro directing the people you paid 1099, you may have had what the state of NY would consider an em…

> It will probably come as a surprise to you (it did me several years ago), that it’s not simply up to you and the company hiring you if you are considered a freelancer. Where do you draw the line? Let's say you hire someone for 3 hours to help you out for a specific task. A "I would like X done with Y" type of scenario. Are they now considered an employee? What if you asked someone to do a code review for 5 hours wh…

>> it’s not simply up to you and the company hiring you if you are considered a freelancer.

> Where do you draw the line?

From the IRS[1]:

> The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if the payer has the right to control or direct only the result of the work, not what will be done and how it will be done. Small businesses should consider all evidence of the degree of control and independence in the employer/worker relationship. Whether a worker is an independent contractor or employee depends on the facts in each situation.

...

> Written contracts which describe the relationship the parties intend to create. Although a contract stating the worker is an employee or an independent contractor is not sufficient to determine the worker’s status. ___

1. https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/understanding-employee-vs-contr...

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#676

All these people making Uber money on the side ... the whole thing was possible in part due to the low friction in (and also complete disregard for) the regulatory environment. I’m in NYC and honestly can’t figure out how to legally hire a studio assistant for a few hours a week without being at risk for any of a number of lawsuit vectors. So I just coil my own cables. And I don’t mentor people who want to learn some…

I'm a student at a music school in NYC, I wonder if I could help? send me an email at robert.diack [at] gmail if you're interested.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#677
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The employees have to buy and maintain the vehicles themselves, doesn't really absolve Uber from being a transportation company, after all, they make transportation happen on their platform as their main business effort.

Nonsense. eBay makes selling happen on their platform, does that make eBay a store and all sellers employees of eBay? Uber also is a technology company just like eBay.

eBay is marketplace where sellers and buyers transact on their own terms - sellers set their own prices and buyers choose from multiple options to purchase things. Uber is not a marketplace - drivers do not set their own prices and riders cannot choose from multiple options when selecting a driver.

If Uber wants to be treated as a marketplace and sidestep this new law, it needs to make significant changes - if drivers are truly independent contractors they should be able to set their own prices at a minimum.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#678
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is this supposed to be an unintended consequence? We all know that the cheap rides of Uber are (partially) the result of them dodging around employer obligations.

I disagree with this. What other job on the planet allows me to work when I want to work, bring my own tools, have no boss, and never even talk to the company I am working for?

To me, this is a lot like someone a hundred years ago asking, "what other job on the planet allows children to work around heavy machinery for half an adult wage?".

No one here is saying that people shouldn't be able to drive for a rideshare company. We're saying that people who choose to do that should at least be paid a minimum wage for their time and given basic worker protections. If you oppose this kind of thing, you should probably also oppose minimum wage laws in general (which is a valid opinion).

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason they don't have a choice is because the system is designed to provide the lowest quality of living possible because we haven't done basic things like raised minimum wage with inflation or institute universal health care. Instead we've subsidized all these gig corporations so frequently that one of the biggest ones pays 0 in federal taxes. Something I don't even get the choice to do. It's about time we stop…

> Instead we've subsidized all these gig corporations so frequently that one of the biggest ones pays 0 in federal taxes. which one is this?

Amazon

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#680
post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It will probably come as a surprise to you (it did me several years ago), that it’s not simply up to you and the company hiring you if you are considered a freelancer. Where do you draw the line? Let's say you hire someone for 3 hours to help you out for a specific task. A "I would like X done with Y" type of scenario. Are they now considered an employee? What if you asked someone to do a code review for 5 hours wh…

>> it’s not simply up to you and the company hiring you if you are considered a freelancer. > Where do you draw the line? From the IRS[1]: > The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if the payer has the right to control or direct only the result of the work, not what will be done and how it will be done. Small businesses should consider all evidence of the degree of control and independence…

> The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if the payer has the right to control or direct only the result of the work, not what will be done and how it will be done

Using this IRS logic then I wonder if most employees are really contractors.

If you're hired as an employee to work on project X, a manager would likely not even know how it will be done. They aren't going to write out the programming code logic for you (that's your job as the employee). They might give you business rules such as "it needs to do XYZ", but that's much different than "how it will be done".

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