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California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

nytimes.com

621–630 of 754 posts

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#621

One unintended outcome of this is probably going to be age discrimination. If companies are now required to provide health care they is an incentive to hire younger workers with cheaper healthcare expenses than older people who cost more.

California considers age to be a protected class.

Right - but how often/easily is that enforced?

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#622
post #599

I want to be empathetic to both sides of the argument. Don’t 1099 workers have preferential tax treatments? Why would you give that up and become W2? On the other hand, health insurance is a safety net. I feel like we need a new system where one can be an entrepreneur and still be able to afford healthcare.

> Don’t 1099 workers have preferential tax treatments? It's complicated but the short answer is no. A 1099 contractor can write off a bunch of expenses. But importantly an employer can also write off a bunch of expenses. (like your health insurance) On top of that an employer pays half the FICA withholding where a self employed person pays the whole thing. And also you don't get unemployment as a contractor. And you…

A self-employed person can also put more money away towards retirement and reduce taxable income this way. A W2 person cannot do as much.

I would love to see data regarding the small business rate in Europe. As an American, I’m really missing out on what other developed societies are doing.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way to protect workers is to shift the burden of health care and other costly benefits onto the government, supported by taxes. Then there is no risk to hiring a new employee beyond the wages you pay them. The US public does not want this, though, and the war of words over universal health care has led to incredibly deep entrenchment on the side of those opposed. All this despite the mountain of evidence from oth…

>The US public does not want this I don't think this is true. I think what the US public doesn't want is the higher taxes to pay for it. We are already swimming in debt and wages haven't kept up with inflation. My daughter is making exactly the same wages now that I made when I was her age 25 years ago, in comparable jobs.

I'm Canadian and I don't pay substantially more income tax that Americans do in high tax states such as California. So what do you get for your high taxes? Not health care thats for sure.

I guess what you mostly get is a very expensive military.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In America, you have to work until you die. The major thing the gig economy takes from people is health care. It's insanely expensive, and the Affordable Care Act is a terrible shamble of broken policy. I spent time outside of the US and came back to find health care worse than when I left it: https://fightthefuture.org/article/returning-to-america-and-... I have a friend who has been fighting brain cancer for over a…

This is why I don't understand why people take gig jobs. Think of the opportunity costs. First off, Uber drivers don't make that much. Then you have vehicle depreciation and maintenance costs. You need to carry an insurance rider that covers rideshare driving. You also need to pay for your own health care. When you add up all these expenses, plus the desire for a living wage, there is no way drivers can be making eno…

They are supposed to be side jobs to the main job you get benefits from.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#625

All these people making Uber money on the side ... the whole thing was possible in part due to the low friction in (and also complete disregard for) the regulatory environment. I’m in NYC and honestly can’t figure out how to legally hire a studio assistant for a few hours a week without being at risk for any of a number of lawsuit vectors. So I just coil my own cables. And I don’t mentor people who want to learn some…

Even though it does not look this way now, I think this is a seminal legislation that in time will move small startup scene out of California for good, due to what you have described. I have the same experience, bootstrapping a software company that initially could not afford an employee payroll and administrative/legal burden. Where do we go next to start non-VC companies? Oregon? Texas?

What if you just incorporate in Delaware and contract remotely out of less restrictive states in the US? I think this will only apply to employees working within CA

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is why I don't understand why people take gig jobs. Sometimes Compared to what? is the most important question. I've been driving for a few years. Before this I was making minimum wage with no benefits. Before that I had a difficult stretch of unemployment. One of my least favorite questions passengers ask me is What did you do before this? because I don't really like to talk about it. It is a rough job - you…

So, you'd rather drive without a guaranteed minimum wage, possibility for unemployment benefits, or health care benefits? I fail to see how that leaves the driver in a better position.

I think the parent's point is that it's better to have a job, even if it's low-paying and has few protections, than to have no job at all.

Obviously it'd be better if all jobs were reasonably-paying and had protections, and you could directly replace all the bad ones with better ones, but that's not the world we live in.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#627
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For those of us lucky enough to be in good health It's a common refrain that only people with health problems need health care, but that's just not true. Risk has a price. That's why health care and life insurance for healthy people is not free. Good health just makes it easier to pretend that risk isn't there. Tying health care to employment is a historical accident long overdue for change.

> Tying health care to employment is a historical accident long overdue for change. Ironically, it came about because of wage freezes imposed by the government during WW2. Employers had to find something to offer to attract workers, and employer-paid insurance did the trick. The trap, though, was that employer paid insurance was paid with pre-tax dollars, while if you bought it yourself you'd pay in post-tax dollars,…

That's an interesting tidbit of history. Thanks

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In America, you have to work until you die. The major thing the gig economy takes from people is health care. It's insanely expensive, and the Affordable Care Act is a terrible shamble of broken policy. I spent time outside of the US and came back to find health care worse than when I left it: https://fightthefuture.org/article/returning-to-america-and-... I have a friend who has been fighting brain cancer for over a…

This is why I don't understand why people take gig jobs. Think of the opportunity costs. First off, Uber drivers don't make that much. Then you have vehicle depreciation and maintenance costs. You need to carry an insurance rider that covers rideshare driving. You also need to pay for your own health care. When you add up all these expenses, plus the desire for a living wage, there is no way drivers can be making eno…

Last Uber drive that I talked to that did this on the side was in the area for some construction job that required him to be on site some days of the week, others didn't. In those days when they didn't call on him he did Uber for some money. The alternative was to not do anything and not get that money. There are definitely costs (hidden or not, really depends on how deep you are going to look for them) but I can also see how given the alternative of not doing anything they can still help. It's not like the Uber driver doesn't have to pay for insurance, registration and other fixed car costs (food, rent) anyway, whether they Uber or not.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the software contractors I know easily meet (A) and (B). In these cases, they bid on the job based on its requirements, have multiple customers, define how they will implement the software, and sometimes even have employees. When I personally worked as a contractor, the other contractors I worked with mostly bounced from short gig to short gig. That would probably meet (B). (A) was a bit more subjective. If y…

>When I personally worked as a contractor, the other contractors I worked with mostly bounced from short gig to short gig. That would probably meet (B). (A) was a bit more subjective. I'm confused. You seem to be applying (B) to the contractor somehow, where my reading is that it applies to the company doing the contracting. It doesn't matter what the contractor is doing; if a company makes widgets, they can't hire a…

> You seem to be applying (B) to the contractor somehow, where my reading is that it applies to the company doing the contracting

Yes and no. A company that hires contractors who bounce from gig to gig meets (B) assuming that the software in the other gigs applies to different businesses.

Assume I make websites on contracts. If I make a website for a butcher, a baker, and a candlestick maker; the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker clearly meet (B).

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#630
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a software contractor... (A) and (B) are terrifying. I think (A) means you really can't do contract work while working under the direction of a manager, or PGM. So you essentially have to be doing work for hire rather than filling in a specialist role for a defined period of time. (B)... Wow... So if the company is a software development company, they can't hire contractors??? I really hope I'm reading that wrong.…

In 2019, it's probably not too out of scope for nearly any business to argue software is a core part of their daily activities. The digital transformation is basically done, if in the last 10 years you didn't turn your company into a quasi-tech company your competitors did and you died. I'd make the guess that one could go into finer detail on what specific type of software development falls in-line with the daily ac…

Using software is within the daily activities of most businesses. Writing it is not.
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