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California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

nytimes.com

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Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#551
post #469
post #451

This is an extremely heavy handed law which would be destructive to large parts of the economy by making many people’s livelihoods illegal. The drafters of the law knew this, which is why 90% of the text of the law is carve-outs for various professions. But forcing people to live their lives through loopholes never works well. For example, they have this carve out for high skilled professions: > (3) An individual who…

They're not carving out high-skill professions. You'll notice that doctors aren't on that list. They're carving out professions that are already under special regulatory regimes that affect how they're able to sell their work. In part because people/businesses are required by law to contract with people who hold these licenses. Like you cannot build a building without a licensed architect and civil engineer. There wo…

It is actually pretty difficult to find the final text of the bill, and the list of exemptions seems to change a lot between versions, so let's look at a quote from one of the authors:

> Lorena González, the San Diego Assembly member who authored AB 5, says she’s working to make sure that is not the case. The point, she says, is to protect workers from exploitation and to classify them as real employees with the power to unionize, not to stifle their independence. “We don’t want to deny somebody the opportunity to, say, submit a story to The New York Times,” she says. “So we are looking at freelancers and working with some of the associations and unions to come up with a definition for what a ‘real’ freelancer is.”

https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/ab-5-freelancers-bill/

She acknowledges the fact that this will cause a lot of problems for a lot of people who have nothing to do with the gig economy, and that they are working on a lot of carve-outs because of this. But I guess the software dev's union didn't make it in time to do the proper lobbying, so we're out of luck.

Some laws lay out elegant general principles that can be applied in many scenarios, and some laws fail at this and require people to contort themselves into the limited categories thought of by the politicians and their lobbyists at the time they wrote the law.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way to protect workers is to shift the burden of health care and other costly benefits onto the government, supported by taxes. Then there is no risk to hiring a new employee beyond the wages you pay them. The US public does not want this, though, and the war of words over universal health care has led to incredibly deep entrenchment on the side of those opposed. All this despite the mountain of evidence from oth…

> The US public does not want this That's far from clear. Polling fairly consistently shows that the US public favors at least some degree of it (particularly shifting the healthcare burden from employers to government, other benefits have less political salience), though any particular plan for the detailed mechanism may have trouble gaining majority support.

US public would yell an enthusiastic "hell yes!" if you ask them do they want free healthcare forever but then when you ask - ok, so how we pay for all that actually, that's where "hmmmm" comes in. "Government" means taxes, and US public is not super hot on paying more taxes, and not on US government (BTW, which one? there's federal government, state government, local governments... US has literally thousands of governments, which one you go to?), which is not exactly known by its efficiency and friendliness to the hoi polloi, to run their healthcare. If there was magic solution that allowed to keep those nice doctors and hospitals exactly as they are but somehow it would all be paid for by something, it's be super nice and the US public would love it. And some unicorns too. Unfortunately, neither seems to exist - to rebuild US healthcare system to look like Canadian or any of the European ones would not be as easy as just public agreeing on something - something most of them don't even understand how it actually works.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you'd rather drive without a guaranteed minimum wage, possibility for unemployment benefits, or health care benefits? I fail to see how that leaves the driver in a better position.

The gig jobs are already not profitable without those things in place. With those in place the gig jobs will be destroyed. People already complain about high prices and those prices don't even cover the costs of trips unless you live in a dense city.

Profitable to Uber, or to the driver? Uber gets a ~30% cut of what the rider pays (though it varies per ride).

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#554

All these people making Uber money on the side ... the whole thing was possible in part due to the low friction in (and also complete disregard for) the regulatory environment. I’m in NYC and honestly can’t figure out how to legally hire a studio assistant for a few hours a week without being at risk for any of a number of lawsuit vectors. So I just coil my own cables. And I don’t mentor people who want to learn some…

The way to protect workers is to shift the burden of health care and other costly benefits onto the government, supported by taxes. Then there is no risk to hiring a new employee beyond the wages you pay them. The US public does not want this, though, and the war of words over universal health care has led to incredibly deep entrenchment on the side of those opposed. All this despite the mountain of evidence from oth…

> The way to protect workers is to shift the burden of health care and other costly benefits onto the government, supported by taxes

Yes, it's clear that our prosperity hinges on how quickly we decouple health care from our employers.

Employers don't want to be in the business of providing healthcare to their employees and its painfully obvious.

I just don't understand why smart people think it's a good idea for anyone other than me decide what my healthcare needs are!

I would like to have a separate discussion whether the government is the best party to handle this. If you look for my writing here and on Quora, you will see that I have for over a decade being campaigning the government was the best party, but after having really worked on it (thanks to people getting in touch with me from my writing), I no longer believe the government is the best partner.

Instead, I think the government managed marketplace where people choose private insurance is actually a brilliant solution and ACA already provides that, so we already have that in place.

The value the government brings here is extreme negotiating ability with the private insurance providers that individual citizens lack.

> The US public does not want this

I strongly disagree.

I have spoken with far too many (thousands) of people to know that majority of the U.S. hate their employer provided insurance and are worse off for it. I can give you specific instances where an employee was worse off due to the employer provided insurance and had to declare bankruptcy due to medical bills than if they were unemployed to begin with and were on welfare instead!

I seriously believe:

1. the tax incentives to provide employer provided insurance should be abolished. They made sense at a time that's past us now.

2. employers instead should be required to pay a premium for choosing to provide primary insurance to employees instead of letting employees continue with the coverage they have or get one from the marketplace

3. Employers are free to provide secondary and supplementary care insurance if they chose to, not due to regulation.

This leaves behind only those employers who genuinely care about their employees instead of pretending to do something because someone forces them to.

I support the individual mandate in the ACA because it ensures negative self selection in the marketplace.

This will allow people to gain control of their own healthcare, get a benefit package that's more transparent and gain better control of their own lives.

As software engineers, we are in the top tier of employment. We earn in the top tier of the population and handle levels of complexity in the top tier of the population.

Our personal experiences don't reflect that of the general population.

Even then, the engineer making $180k/yr at Microsoft might have a very different healthcare experience compared to the engineer making $180k/yr at Google depending on the choices that the benefits administrators at Microsoft and Google have made!

That's just insane and a level of complexity that's just unnecessary.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still confused how you can avoid tell someone how to do their job. A SW contractor can't be told which language to use or be connected to company source control or use existing company software libraries? A carpenter can't be directed in some fashion beyond: 'YOU, GO BUILD HOUSE FRAME'.

I did software contracting for a while. It’s certainly appropriate to define parameters like “use language x, code these features, by this deadline and keep a synchronized copy of the code in this repo.” You can’t set hours and direct particular tasks day to day.

Having personally been through the employee vs contractor maelstrom when, for some unknown reason, the state government got a bug up it's ass, I'd have to say that the state requirements become quite arbitrary.

What you might think is appropriate is sort of besides the point.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gig jobs are already not profitable without those things in place. With those in place the gig jobs will be destroyed. People already complain about high prices and those prices don't even cover the costs of trips unless you live in a dense city.

Profitable to Uber, or to the driver? Uber gets a ~30% cut of what the rider pays (though it varies per ride).

I meant profitable to Uber.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#557

I would like to read more comments from actual drivers from this apps instead of people saying things they think about them and their lives.

You're in the wrong spot.

Here you can find only people who would never find themselves in a position where they have to "freelance" on such a low wage level where the law is really important.

The top comment is some guy whining that his studio has not been cleaned recently while the rest fears for their exploit business ideas...Welcome to the digital bourgeoisie.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#558

All these people making Uber money on the side ... the whole thing was possible in part due to the low friction in (and also complete disregard for) the regulatory environment. I’m in NYC and honestly can’t figure out how to legally hire a studio assistant for a few hours a week without being at risk for any of a number of lawsuit vectors. So I just coil my own cables. And I don’t mentor people who want to learn some…

[deleted]

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm still confused how you can avoid tell someone how to do their job. A SW contractor can't be told which language to use or be connected to company source control or use existing company software libraries? A carpenter can't be directed in some fashion beyond: 'YOU, GO BUILD HOUSE FRAME'.

I did software contracting for a while. It’s certainly appropriate to define parameters like “use language x, code these features, by this deadline and keep a synchronized copy of the code in this repo.” You can’t set hours and direct particular tasks day to day.

> You can’t set hours and direct particular tasks day to day.

What if this is part of the requirement of doing the contract work?

For example, your job is to pair program with one of their employees and they are only available from 10am to noon.

Technically the person paying you for your time is setting your hours.

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