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Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

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Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#251

Post by pstuart »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #244
slg wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you do Snowden a disservice when you lump him in with Assange. Snowden you can easily argue is a whisleblower. You can't argue that with Assange since he doesn't have first hand knowledge of what he is leaking and instead actively recruits people to feed him information to leak. He also seemingly encourages people to commit crimes to get more information for him. Snowden did that all himself. In addition, Ass…

> I think you do Snowden a disservice when you lump him in with Assange. Correct. Snowden is a Whistle-blower. Assange is a journalist, though perhaps not the kind Snowden would have trusted his stolen data with.

Assange is an attention whore. I had such high hopes for wikileaks but it was, in the end, a vehicle for him to promote himself.

Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#252

Post by ceejayoz »

GuB-42 wrote: post #240
empath75 wrote: post #138

I think the administration badly, badly mishandled Snowden and Assange, and allowed Russia to coopt them by isolating and threatening them. If they had treated them as whistleblowers and journalists (even if they had nefarious motivations), they could have kept them in "the west" instead of driving them into the arms of Russia. I don't believe that Assange was a Russian agent at the beginning but he was surely one by…

I think the administration screwed up massively in more ways than one. - They conducted illegal, and most likely ineffective surveillance. I mean, if they have as huge watchlists as it is claimed, they can't reasonably watch very closely. - A subcontractor named Snowden, managed to leak a lot of secret stuff. And while it is the most memorable instance, it is not the first serious leak. - They failed at damage contro…

> And while it is the most memorable instance, it is not the first serious leak.

This is a key bit. Snowden was able to basically walk immensely sensitive data out the front door, and we may only know about that because he told us.

How much stuff makes the same journey into the hands of intelligence agencies instead of journalists?

Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#253

Post by slg »

abugheratwork wrote: post #220
slg wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the motives for leaking information regarding our actions on foreign soil against foreign citizens? I was a big fan of Snowden until he started doing that. That isn't whistleblowing against Constitutional violations and seemed to indicate a shift in his objectives. It now appears that he is just against US spying at large, which is a perfectly acceptable political opinion to have, but it doesn't justify whis…

> What are the motives for leaking information regarding our actions on foreign soil against foreign [human beings]? Which side of an imaginary line you were born on should not determine your rights. If he leaked documents about operations against Americans, and then also about operations against foreigners, in my mind he did the same thing twice. If there was another difference, like spilling the location or identit…

>Which side of an imaginary line you were born on should not determine your rights.

That is what I am talking about as a "perfectly acceptable political opinion", but it is not an opinion that is based off any laws. Almost no mainstream political figure would share that opinion and therefore if that is the basis of Snowden's arguments, it isn't a wonder why he was treated harshly by the mainstream political system. Foreign spying is an accepted aspect of modern life. I totally understand if you think that spying in unethical. But Snowden would have been received much more favorable if he simply focused on the domestic spying operations which are largely unpopular rather than also revealing the foreign operations which are mostly accepted as necessary by the general population.

Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#254

Post by boomskats »

pstuart wrote: post #251
loup-vaillant wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think you do Snowden a disservice when you lump him in with Assange. Correct. Snowden is a Whistle-blower. Assange is a journalist, though perhaps not the kind Snowden would have trusted his stolen data with.

Assange is an attention whore. I had such high hopes for wikileaks but it was, in the end, a vehicle for him to promote himself.

It was & is far, far more than that.

Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#255

Post by not_a_cop75 »

EpicEng wrote: post #217
not_a_cop75 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose that all the South African farmers that moved to Russia to avoid getting killed over politics by savages are also Russian Agents. https://www.thesouthafrican.com/news/land-expropriation-russ...

If the subsequently worked at the behest of the Russian goverment to push their agenda, yes. Honestly are you even reading what I'm typing?

Well, then I suppose it was indeed a PR stunt for the Russians to accept South African farmers, and they are according to your logic indeed Russian Agents! That is assuming a PR campaign pushes an agenda, and I would argue it does.

Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#256

Post by seppin »

nabla9 wrote: post #160
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #153

This made me realize I have heard ZERO news on Assange after his arrest, and the likelihood of him being tortured and rendered and railroaded of course means our nation (US) of laws and rights is a sham. Don't tell me it's boring, this should be a sideshow for the media like OJ. Rape trial? Russian meddling? Little guy vs the government? International intrigue? Crickets. A truly independent media would be tracking hi…

He is sitting his 50 week sentence in HM Prison Belmarsh in UK and has access to lawyers. Media is tracking his case. There is nothing to report. There are people who spew up conspiracy theories on the spot when they have not heard anything, from pure ignorance, yet they speak ill of mainstream media.

> There are people who spew up conspiracy theories on the spot when they have not heard anything, from pure ignorance, yet they speak ill of mainstream media.

It's much easier than knowing what you're talking about.

Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#257

Post by slg »

stale2002 wrote: post #219
slg wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the motives for leaking information regarding our actions on foreign soil against foreign citizens? I was a big fan of Snowden until he started doing that. That isn't whistleblowing against Constitutional violations and seemed to indicate a shift in his objectives. It now appears that he is just against US spying at large, which is a perfectly acceptable political opinion to have, but it doesn't justify whis…

> What are the motives for leaking information regarding our actions on foreign soil against foreign citizens? Because many of the spying actions were against Americans. Did you not read the leaks?

Sure, I read them. Many of them were about operations against US citizens. However, not all of them were. Here[1] is one example that comes to mind. That story in this leak is interesting, newsworthy, had serious repercussions, and was potentially unethical for the US government to do. However it is also exactly the type of thing everyone expects the NSA to be doing and it doesn't involve the spying on any Americans. This is the type of leak that will ensure that Snowden isn't embraced by the US government.

[1] - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/13/snowden-nsa-sy...

Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#258

Post by bdhess »

loup-vaillant wrote: post #244
slg wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you do Snowden a disservice when you lump him in with Assange. Snowden you can easily argue is a whisleblower. You can't argue that with Assange since he doesn't have first hand knowledge of what he is leaking and instead actively recruits people to feed him information to leak. He also seemingly encourages people to commit crimes to get more information for him. Snowden did that all himself. In addition, Ass…

> I think you do Snowden a disservice when you lump him in with Assange. Correct. Snowden is a Whistle-blower. Assange is a journalist, though perhaps not the kind Snowden would have trusted his stolen data with.

I think calling Assange a journalist is very debatable. He certainly doesn’t comply with the ethical norms of the profession.

Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#259

Post by boomskats »

arethuza wrote: post #99
petargyurov wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, what/who are you referring to?

"Data privacy campaign groups and Labour have expressed alarm after it emerged Downing Street has ordered departments to centralise the collection and analysis of user information from the government’s main public information website ahead of Brexit." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/10/no-10-request-... Edit: I wonder if this includes the petition site?? Can't say that I'd be too keen on the Dark Lord Cumm…

I actually think it is specifically targeting petitions.gov.uk, under the guise of the 'wider gov.uk' scope.

It's the only part of that site I can see BJ actually giving enough of a shit about to go out of his way and double down on at this point. The rest of the gov.uk stuff is already very well managed and instrumented (and a great public service).

Re: Edward Snowden: Permanent Record

#260

Post by SahAssar »

outside1234 wrote: post #151
kerkeslager wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So inform us. Present evidence for your opinion or keep your opinion to yourself.

You are kidding right? The whole cold war?

Ah, so the NSA was the reason the cold war ended as it did? Via what specific actions/events?
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