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California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

nytimes.com

431–440 of 754 posts

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prices up, sorry consumers. total earnings down, sorry full time drivers. hourly earnings up, yay part time drivers.

Why hire part-time drivers at all? The marginal costs don't make sense if they can't get all the hours they can.

Mmm I think you get the best of all worlds (as the hiring company) with part timers.

- No marginal costs outside the min wage (no benefits) and honestly you don’t want more hours unless they are explicitly in the time and place you want them.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#432
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The employees have to buy and maintain the vehicles themselves, doesn't really absolve Uber from being a transportation company, after all, they make transportation happen on their platform as their main business effort.

Nonsense. eBay makes selling happen on their platform, does that make eBay a store and all sellers employees of eBay? Uber also is a technology company just like eBay.

There is a crucial difference; ebay Sellers can pick their customers. They can perform the same sale outside ebay. Customers can pick who to buy an item from. Ebay doesn't take a cut of the sale either, they take a charge for displaying the item on their store page, which the vendor also has to advertise and design on their own.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In America, you have to work until you die. The major thing the gig economy takes from people is health care. It's insanely expensive, and the Affordable Care Act is a terrible shamble of broken policy. I spent time outside of the US and came back to find health care worse than when I left it: https://fightthefuture.org/article/returning-to-america-and-... I have a friend who has been fighting brain cancer for over a…

This is why I don't understand why people take gig jobs. Think of the opportunity costs. First off, Uber drivers don't make that much. Then you have vehicle depreciation and maintenance costs. You need to carry an insurance rider that covers rideshare driving. You also need to pay for your own health care. When you add up all these expenses, plus the desire for a living wage, there is no way drivers can be making eno…

Everyone who I've personally known do these jobs only do it temporarily just to make ends meet between real jobs. It doesn't matter how shitty the benefits are if you're going to get kicked out on the street because you missed the rent/mortgage payment. Maybe some people do it "for a living" but I bet most are between real opportunities or making some money for Christmas/vacation/etc

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does matter. Here's why: Uber agrees to pay X rate currently to drivers. A law is passed that makes X rate even more unprofitable. Uber then engages the services of an external company which provides labor at a lower rate, fires all of the current Uber drivers, and encourages them to work for the new external company. The external company, if sued, does not have the resources that Uber has, and simply goes bankrup…

The law allows for veil piercing in situations like that, meaning they could skip the temporary intermediaries and just treat Uber as the employer. Believe it or not, they did think of issues like this when drafting the law. Especially since almost all of these other issues brought up in the comments are decades old and already addressed by existing labor laws.

Others are pointing out the problem with staffing companies too, but this reminds me of my experience (different countries, so YMMV). This means that even though "The law allows for veil piercing" there's a huge maybe there, companies unloading their liability know this and have great lawyers. So IF a lawsuit gets to the real employer it's only after a LONG legal process, so not worth as much.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In America, you have to work until you die. The major thing the gig economy takes from people is health care. It's insanely expensive, and the Affordable Care Act is a terrible shamble of broken policy. I spent time outside of the US and came back to find health care worse than when I left it: https://fightthefuture.org/article/returning-to-america-and-... I have a friend who has been fighting brain cancer for over a…

Based on the very large revenue from foreign patients who come to America to get cancer treatment on their own dime, those patients and their families care about getting the best treatment.

You can't use the 0.1% cases to justify the 90% who will get wrecked financially because of major surgery, cancer treatment, etc because it's so expensive. Medical treatment shouldn't be a for profit business, there has to be a better way, and other countries have a better system (in the sense of doing the greatest good for the most people, and not just the 0.1%) than we do and we can copy the best of them as we will be doing it from scratch.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#437
This is an Atlas Shrugged moment, if I’ve ever seen one. I know Uber and Lyft would not do it because they are public companies and other reasons. Yet, it is my opinion, that they should. They should fire everyone in CA.

Why?

Because this is preposterous.

These companies started with the premise that people could sign-up to monetize free time by driving others using their vehicles. That was the deal, the contract, if you will.

Nobody forced drivers or passengers to participate in any way.

The system was the very embodiment of freedom: You do as you want, when you want, if you want to. And you can also stop and not do it if it does not deliver value. This applied both to driver and passenger.

This move represents the use of force on the part of government to unjustly interfere with the free market. It’s the continuation of a slippery slope in CA that will eventually cause this State’s politics to become indistinguishable from that of a third world country.

This is also wrong because, as far as I know, it is the first time government uses force (because that’s what laws are) to materially change the business model of public companies.

Uber and Lyft should fire everyone in CA immediately. That’s the only power they have. If they don’t move to force a repeal these politicians are going to mess with them until the end of time. If you have ever had the “pleasure” of dealing with the State Board of Equalization you know precisely what I mean. It’s hard to believe, but, yes, they are worse than the DMV.

This might also mean that, by extension, it will be dicey to hire anyone in CA for gigs. Be it a graphic designer or coder, if the potential exists for trouble people will simply hire out of state out of the country.

As Ross Perot famously said, paraphrasing...that huge sucking sound you hear are jobs leaving CA, if not the country.

For Uber and Lyft it might mean accelerating their transition to robot cars in order to get rid of people as soon as possible.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#439

All these people making Uber money on the side ... the whole thing was possible in part due to the low friction in (and also complete disregard for) the regulatory environment. I’m in NYC and honestly can’t figure out how to legally hire a studio assistant for a few hours a week without being at risk for any of a number of lawsuit vectors. So I just coil my own cables. And I don’t mentor people who want to learn some…

Even though it does not look this way now, I think this is a seminal legislation that in time will move small startup scene out of California for good, due to what you have described. I have the same experience, bootstrapping a software company that initially could not afford an employee payroll and administrative/legal burden. Where do we go next to start non-VC companies? Oregon? Texas?

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#440
post #257

All these people making Uber money on the side ... the whole thing was possible in part due to the low friction in (and also complete disregard for) the regulatory environment. I’m in NYC and honestly can’t figure out how to legally hire a studio assistant for a few hours a week without being at risk for any of a number of lawsuit vectors. So I just coil my own cables. And I don’t mentor people who want to learn some…

> I’m in NYC and honestly can’t figure out how to legally hire a studio assistant for a few hours a week without being at risk for any of a number of lawsuit vectors. To my understanding (not a lawyer / accountant) if you hire someone part time like that you're not obligated to pay for their insurance or anything like that. You just write off what you paid them as a business expense and send them a 1099 at the end of…

This is a common misconception, but terribly incorrect. Talk to a lawyer.
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