Earlier quoted context omitted.
When they say "usual course of business" they mean the revenue generating activity, not essential support functions. I.e., Uber could not outsource driving if it calls itself a transportation company, but it could outsource accounting functions.
I'm just not convinced that's a straightforward question to answer. I once worked for a hardware company that outsourced new hardware development to a contractor. We had a guy in house for maintenance, and the occasional hardware bug that propped up, but we only designed a new box once every 5 years or so... it just didn't make sense to have the team in house. We did manufacturing in house, and we had a huge software…
California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees
371–380 of 754 posts
Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees
#372Earlier quoted context omitted.
Here in the US I'm personally forgoing health insurance to pursue my craft while developing software on the side for extra income. One medical emergency will end it all. I've often wondered myself if, in a country with universal healthcare, people would be more willing to take risks and start businesses, pursue their art, develop inventions, etc. Would love to see an analysis of the economic cost of not having univer…
>One medical emergency will end it all. One medical emergency and your credit will be ruined. Wait a seven years without contracting the debt collector and the debt becomes uncollectible. After three years roughly three quarters of the effect on your credit will evaporate. That's what actually happens beyond the hyperbolic political grandstanding. Remember kids, if you get a bill that you can't possibly pay. Don't pa…
Where will you live? In my area you need good credit to get an apartment...
Credit affects your life in many ways, I’m not advocating a specific action, just pointing out that the advice above can have negative effects on your life.
Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees
#373Earlier quoted context omitted.
The burden of proof would be on Uber and Lyft to show: (B) The person performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business. This would be a hard sell because Uber and Lyft are in the business of providing transportation to people. They may argue that they're only providing the platform that enables drivers to provide rides, but considering the amount of evidence that says otherwise, I'd like…
Then this won't cover them as people seem to think it does, because the actual driving is not uber's business. They run a market-place in which others operate; the actual driving is indeed outside of the hiring entity's usual business. Regardless, there seems to be an obvious loop-hole for uber lawyers to chase.
They have literally none of the hallmarks of being a marketplace.
Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees
#374Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then this won't cover them as people seem to think it does, because the actual driving is not uber's business. They run a market-place in which others operate; the actual driving is indeed outside of the hiring entity's usual business. Regardless, there seems to be an obvious loop-hole for uber lawyers to chase.
The obvious loophole for the businesses to use is to start charging drivers for the service, which makes them customers and not employees.
They would need to redesign their entire app and business model to do that.
Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees
#375This seems like terrible legislation. Yes, part time gig workers are exposed to harms that employees don’t face (i.e. lack of health insurance). But the ability to work flexibly and between lots of companies has huge upside for them and for firms. Why not tax companies who use these workers and put the tax revenue toward a special health insurance / social safety net specifically for gig workers? Mitigates many of th…
Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees
#376Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I’m in NYC and honestly can’t figure out how to legally hire a studio assistant for a few hours a week without being at risk for any of a number of lawsuit vectors. To my understanding (not a lawyer / accountant) if you hire someone part time like that you're not obligated to pay for their insurance or anything like that. You just write off what you paid them as a business expense and send them a 1099 at the end of…
Also not an accountant or lawyer, but I think that if you're paying someone by the hour, and directing them as to how they should do they job, they need to be classified as an employee, not a contractor. This means a W2 instead of a 1099, plus you need to pay them on a fixed schedule, pay social security and medicare taxes (and likely other taxes depending on jurisdiction) on their wages, deduct income taxes, do an I…
>To determine whether an individual is an employee or an independent contractor under the common-law, the relationship of the worker and the business must be examined. In any employee-independent contractor determination, all information that provides evidence of the degree of control and the degree of independence must be considered.
>Facts that provide evidence of the degree of control and independence fall into three categories: behavioral control, financial control, and the type of relationship of the parties. These facts are discussed next.
>Behavioral control.
>Facts that show whether the business has a right to direct and control how the worker does the task for which the worker is hired include the type and degree of:
>Instructions that the business gives to the worker.
>An employee is generally subject to the business' instructions about when, where, and how to work. All of the following are examples of types of instructions about how to do work.
> - When and where to do the work.
> - What tools or equipment to use.
> - What workers to hire or to assist with the work.
> - Where to purchase supplies and services.
> - What work must be performed by a specified individual.
> - What order or sequence to follow.
>The amount of instruction needed varies among different jobs. Even if no instructions are given, sufficient behavioral control may exist if the employer has the right to control how the work results are achieved. A business may lack the knowledge to instruct some highly specialized professionals; in other cases, the task may require little or no instruction. The key consideration is whether the business has retained the right to control the details of a worker's performance or instead has given up that right.
>Training that the business gives to the worker.
>An employee may be trained to perform services in a particular manner. Independent contractors ordinarily use their own methods.
>Financial control.
>Facts that show whether the business has a right to control the business aspects of the worker's job include:
>The extent to which the worker has unreimbursed business expenses.
>Independent contractors are more likely to have unreimbursed expenses than are employees. Fixed ongoing costs that are incurred regardless of whether work is currently being performed are especially important. However, employees may also incur unreimbursed expenses in connection with the services that they perform for their employer.
>The extent of the worker's investment.
>An independent contractor often has a significant investment in the facilities or tools he or she uses in performing services for someone else. However, a significant investment isn't necessary for independent contractor status.
>The extent to which the worker makes his or her services available to the relevant market.
>An independent contractor is generally free to seek out business opportunities. Independent contractors often advertise, maintain a visible business location, and are available to work in the relevant market.
>How the business pays the worker.
>An employee is generally guaranteed a regular wage amount for an hourly, weekly, or other period of time. This usually indicates that a worker is an employee, even when the wage or salary is supplemented by a commission. An independent contractor is often paid a flat fee or on a time and materials basis for the job. However, it is common in some professions, such as law, to pay independent contractors hourly.
>The extent to which the worker can realize a profit or loss.
>An independent contractor can make a profit or loss.
>Type of relationship.
>Facts that show the parties' type of relationship include:
> - Written contracts describing the relationship the parties intended to create.
> - Whether or not the business provides the worker with employee-type benefits, such as insurance, a pension plan, vacation pay, or sick pay.
> - The permanency of the relationship. If you engage a worker with the expectation that the relationship will continue indefinitely, rather than for a specific project or period, this is generally considered evidence that your intent was to create an employer-employee relationship.
> - The extent to which services performed by the worker are a key aspect of the regular business of the company. If a worker provides services that are a key aspect of your regular business activity, it is more likely that you’ll have the right to direct and control his or her activities. For example, if a law firm hires an attorney, it is likely that it will present the attorney's work as its own and would have the right to control or direct that work. This would indicate an employer-employee relationship.
>IRS help.
>If you want the IRS to determine whether or not a worker is an employee, file Form SS-8 with the IRS.
Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees
#377All these people making Uber money on the side ... the whole thing was possible in part due to the low friction in (and also complete disregard for) the regulatory environment. I’m in NYC and honestly can’t figure out how to legally hire a studio assistant for a few hours a week without being at risk for any of a number of lawsuit vectors. So I just coil my own cables. And I don’t mentor people who want to learn some…
Few hours a week? How would anyone, other than students, make that work?
Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees
#378If NewCo were to build an app/platform that allowed drivers to bid on rides in real time (perhaps with driver determined presets for price floors, distance, etc), while skimming a percentage off for NewCo, then drivers would clearly be NewCo's customers and not employees.
Under this model, NewCo could also sell insurance to their customers (the drivers), lease them vehicles, etc. all without 'directing' them, or running any risk of them being classed as employees.
Perhaps this will be an unintended consequence to this legislation, but the ultimate outcome of this would likely be worse for many drivers, as open & competitive bidding for rides would likely drive down prices. Look at eBay and Amazon - lowest seller sells most.
Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees
#379Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Experts said that there is nothing in the bill that requires employees to work set shifts, and that Uber and Lyft are legally entitled to continue allowing drivers to make their own scheduling decisions. Well yeah, it doesn't force them to. Who are these "experts"? If Uber takes on 100,000 new employees and all of the costs that go along with them, why wouldn't they also manage them like... employees? You can't have…
because then those drivers would go work for lyft or some other company that doesn't do it? I mean this is why we want competition.
Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees
#380This seems like terrible legislation. Yes, part time gig workers are exposed to harms that employees don’t face (i.e. lack of health insurance). But the ability to work flexibly and between lots of companies has huge upside for them and for firms. Why not tax companies who use these workers and put the tax revenue toward a special health insurance / social safety net specifically for gig workers? Mitigates many of th…
They still have this ability