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Physicists finally nail the proton’s size, eliminating an anomaly

quantamagazine.org

21–30 of 115 posts

Re: Physicists finally nail the proton’s size, eliminating an anomaly

#21
I wish a physicist could explain here how the very notion of "diameter" has any meaning for an object whose size (IIUC) belong entirely to the quantum realm.

Is the hydrogen atom two hard little balls of matter orbiting one another, as we were taught in primary school, or are they a probabilistic soup with various, vaguely localized extrema?

If the latter, how do you even define the notion of diameter?

Re: Physicists finally nail the proton’s size, eliminating an anomaly

#22

I think in some areas of physics, such as high-energy physics, there is not much left to discover. The Standard Model works. What branches of physics are likely to see progress?

It may be unlikely to see progress in a subfield even if there are major unsolved problems. Particle physics is one of those branches.

But see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unsolved_problems_in_p...

Re: Physicists finally nail the proton’s size, eliminating an anomaly

#23
post #10

I think in some areas of physics, such as high-energy physics, there is not much left to discover. The Standard Model works. What branches of physics are likely to see progress?

Someone please help correct my intuition here: the harder it is to find flaws in the Standard Model, the harder it would be to use such new physics in engineering. Basically I'm curious whether continuing failures to find new physics can be taken as evidence that, if and when we find the new physics, it will be very difficult to apply. I'm not against science for its own sake, however. Just more of an engineer than a…

Don't forget that our engineering ability grows as well. I guess that when Einstein proposed his relativity theories, it seemed totally inapplicable. But fast forward a few decades, and we got GPS which wouldn't work without them.

Re: Physicists finally nail the proton’s size, eliminating an anomaly

#24

I wish a physicist could explain here how the very notion of "diameter" has any meaning for an object whose size (IIUC) belong entirely to the quantum realm. Is the hydrogen atom two hard little balls of matter orbiting one another, as we were taught in primary school, or are they a probabilistic soup with various, vaguely localized extrema? If the latter, how do you even define the notion of diameter?

They're a soup.

I suppose you have to pick a probability criteria for the diameter.

Re: Physicists finally nail the proton’s size, eliminating an anomaly

#25

I wish a physicist could explain here how the very notion of "diameter" has any meaning for an object whose size (IIUC) belong entirely to the quantum realm. Is the hydrogen atom two hard little balls of matter orbiting one another, as we were taught in primary school, or are they a probabilistic soup with various, vaguely localized extrema? If the latter, how do you even define the notion of diameter?

Usually the radius of something like a proton or an atom takes the form of a parameter in an equation that just-so-happens to be measured in a unit of length. It's not defined specifically to be an indication of the extent of the particle, it just happens to roughly be about the right size.

This paper[0] says that it is defined in terms of a "probability amplitude that an interaction between a photon of four-momentum q^μ (Q2=−q2) and a charged constituent of the proton can absorb such a momentum with the proton remaining in its ground state." So, not exactly a radius, but "radius" is an okay conceptual mnemonic.

[0] https://arxiv.org/pdf/1812.02714.pdf

Re: Physicists finally nail the proton’s size, eliminating an anomaly

#26

I think in some areas of physics, such as high-energy physics, there is not much left to discover. The Standard Model works. What branches of physics are likely to see progress?

There's still physics in every successive new digit of the physical constants. The gravitational constant is only known to roughly 5 digits. Get to work!

While it is never safe to affirm that the future of Physical Science has no marvels in store even more astonishing than those of the past, it seems probable that most of the grand underlying principles have been firmly established and that further advances are to be sought chiefly in the rigorous application of these principles to all the phenomena which come under our notice. It is here that the science of measurement shows its importance — where quantitative work is more to be desired than qualitative work. An eminent physicist remarked that the future truths of physical science are to be looked for in the sixth place of decimals.

Albert A. Michelson, 1894, just 11 years before Einstein first published about special relativity.

Re: Physicists finally nail the proton’s size, eliminating an anomaly

#27

I wish a physicist could explain here how the very notion of "diameter" has any meaning for an object whose size (IIUC) belong entirely to the quantum realm. Is the hydrogen atom two hard little balls of matter orbiting one another, as we were taught in primary school, or are they a probabilistic soup with various, vaguely localized extrema? If the latter, how do you even define the notion of diameter?

That is an excellent question!

The definition is somewhat arbitrary, but still has some real physical significance. In actual fact, a proton is a field, so it doesn't have sharp boundaries. But the amplitude of the field still dies off very rapidly with distance from the center, so you can pick some arbitrary small value and say "the point at which the amplitude becomes less than this value is the radius of the proton". What matters is not really the number that you get out of this, but the fact that the experimental results of measuring this value appeared to change in the presence of muons. This was a phenomenon that was not predicted by present theory, and if it had held up, would have been a major breakthrough. One of the biggest problems in physics right now is that there are no experiments (except possibly this one) whose results are at odds with the Standard Model. That makes it hard to improve the model!

Re: Physicists finally nail the proton’s size, eliminating an anomaly

#28

I wish a physicist could explain here how the very notion of "diameter" has any meaning for an object whose size (IIUC) belong entirely to the quantum realm. Is the hydrogen atom two hard little balls of matter orbiting one another, as we were taught in primary school, or are they a probabilistic soup with various, vaguely localized extrema? If the latter, how do you even define the notion of diameter?

Depends on the particle! Electrons are considered to be point particles with an infinitesimal radius. A proton, however, is made of three bound quarks, which all whiz around each other within a small but finite region. By bouncing things off the proton, as is done in scattering experiments, a notion of how large that region occupied by the quarks is can be determined.

Re: Physicists finally nail the proton’s size, eliminating an anomaly

#29

I wish a physicist could explain here how the very notion of "diameter" has any meaning for an object whose size (IIUC) belong entirely to the quantum realm. Is the hydrogen atom two hard little balls of matter orbiting one another, as we were taught in primary school, or are they a probabilistic soup with various, vaguely localized extrema? If the latter, how do you even define the notion of diameter?

From the article:

> an electron [...] spends part of its time inside the proton (which is a constellation of elementary particles called quarks and gluons, with a lot of empty space).

Re: Physicists finally nail the proton’s size, eliminating an anomaly

#30

I wish a physicist could explain here how the very notion of "diameter" has any meaning for an object whose size (IIUC) belong entirely to the quantum realm. Is the hydrogen atom two hard little balls of matter orbiting one another, as we were taught in primary school, or are they a probabilistic soup with various, vaguely localized extrema? If the latter, how do you even define the notion of diameter?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_radius_puzzle#Problem (not yet updated with this result, btw) gives 3 methods.
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