California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees • Hacker News Board

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#291

Post by dustinmoris » Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 2:07 PM UTC

neltnerb wrote: post #272

dustinmoris wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you expect from your studio assistant that you think might put you at risk of a number of lawsuits? Honestly, if you want to hire someone to do some work a few hours a week then you are basically hiring a part time employee. There's nothing dangerous around doing this and it's certainly not a minefield if you treat them with the respect that any employee deserves.

Well, other than the minor hassle that they need to know how to issue a W2 and get enrolled for workers comp insurance and pay their estimated taxes for them. None are super hard, but they are barriers for people who aren't used to hiring people, which is the case for I think a lot of self-employed people. I only finally bothered to learn how to do it all last year when I needed some extra help with projects for my c…

> So either it's expensive to hire a CFO just for that, or expensive in your time to learn it all when your main goal is to actually get work done that produces revenue.

This attitute is exactly why those laws are needed. As a business owner if you want to hire some other human being to work for your company then it should be your natural instinct that wants you to learn everything that makes the life of that other human being easy to work for you, but because you have no intrinsic interest in actually educating yourself what someone might need if they work for you, that is why you have to be forced into learning that by law.

It's sad that all you care about is someone getting your work done, because it's still a human being and that legislation is there for a reason.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#292

Post by Dirlewanger » Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 2:07 PM UTC

fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #137

dpau wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in the US I'm personally forgoing health insurance to pursue my craft while developing software on the side for extra income. One medical emergency will end it all. I've often wondered myself if, in a country with universal healthcare, people would be more willing to take risks and start businesses, pursue their art, develop inventions, etc. Would love to see an analysis of the economic cost of not having univer…

>One medical emergency will end it all. One medical emergency and your credit will be ruined. Wait a seven years without contracting the debt collector and the debt becomes uncollectible. After three years roughly three quarters of the effect on your credit will evaporate. That's what actually happens beyond the hyperbolic political grandstanding. Remember kids, if you get a bill that you can't possibly pay. Don't pa…

Are you serious? You know that hospitals have taken people to court and gotten their wages garnished over not paying? You can't just let it "go to collections" because you don't feel like paying a $100k bill for having your appendix removed.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#293

Post by johnrob » Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 2:07 PM UTC

The Uber layoffs announced yesterday now seem to be strategically timed. If we assume the standard 3 month severance offered by big companies, the layoffs would free up cash at the end of 2019 - right when they’d need it for the increase in CA drivers benefits.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#294

Post by alistairSH » Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 2:08 PM UTC

nickjj wrote: post #278

jeffasinger wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also not an accountant or lawyer, but I think that if you're paying someone by the hour, and directing them as to how they should do they job, they need to be classified as an employee, not a contractor. This means a W2 instead of a 1099, plus you need to pay them on a fixed schedule, pay social security and medicare taxes (and likely other taxes depending on jurisdiction) on their wages, deduct income taxes, do an I…

> Also not an accountant or lawyer, but I think that if you're paying someone by the hour, and directing them as to how they should do they job, they need to be classified as an employee, not a contractor. > This means a W2 instead of a 1099 [...] I'm a freelance developer in NY and this isn't the case. When someone requests me to do work for them they tell me what they want done, we scope out the project and then I…

The difference is that the company that contracted you isn't managing your day-to-day work.

Company hires you and says "we need a website that does X" and leaves you to do it. You might be a contractor/free-lancer.

Company hires you and says "we need a website that does X, you need to work in the office and/or use our hardware, and we want it written in React, and you'll be working closely with JimBob the Manager." You are probably not a contractor/freelancer.

Yes, there's some grey area in there. It's a combination of the three factors in the ABC test that determines employee vs contractor.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#295

Post by joey_bob » Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 2:08 PM UTC

DeonPenny wrote: post #57

Well, RIP to the Gig economy hopefully robots get here soon. Cause I can't see the market surviving this.

Yes, "robots". https://www.techidence.com/kiwibots-are-not-fully-autonomous... With the advent of starlink, who knows what else can be outsourced.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#296

Post by balfirevic » Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 2:09 PM UTC

ken wrote: post #228

C1sc0cat wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why am I not surprised its keeping us greasy engineers in their place. Just as in the UK actual Self employed contractors on a 3 month contract get hit by IR35 but Barristers working on the same case for a decade do not.

I can think of many different ways to interpret your first sentence, so I'm not clear what you're saying, but this does make me wonder if it's going to lead to any sort of licensing or certification for general industry programmers. If workers in this field want to call themselves "software engineers" and gain the benefits of a professional title, like lawyers and architects, they're going to have to start following…

> If workers in this field want to call themselves "software engineers" and gain the benefits of a professional title

What are those benefits?

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#297

Post by mercutio2 » Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 2:09 PM UTC

neltnerb wrote: post #272

dustinmoris wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you expect from your studio assistant that you think might put you at risk of a number of lawsuits? Honestly, if you want to hire someone to do some work a few hours a week then you are basically hiring a part time employee. There's nothing dangerous around doing this and it's certainly not a minefield if you treat them with the respect that any employee deserves.

Well, other than the minor hassle that they need to know how to issue a W2 and get enrolled for workers comp insurance and pay their estimated taxes for them. None are super hard, but they are barriers for people who aren't used to hiring people, which is the case for I think a lot of self-employed people. I only finally bothered to learn how to do it all last year when I needed some extra help with projects for my c…

These (incredibly small) requirements you list for having a small number of part time employees have been legal obligations for more than 50 years.

So yes, you have to fill out 5 forms, and write 4 checks, every year for withheld taxes.

But none of this qualifies for “it’s sad, it’s getting hard to be a small business”. They’re just things everyone in the US has been legally obligated to do for part time employees for an exceedingly long time.

So I don’t get the tone of this thread.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#298

Post by Quanttek » Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 2:11 PM UTC

whiddershins wrote: post #246

All these people making Uber money on the side ... the whole thing was possible in part due to the low friction in (and also complete disregard for) the regulatory environment. I’m in NYC and honestly can’t figure out how to legally hire a studio assistant for a few hours a week without being at risk for any of a number of lawsuit vectors. So I just coil my own cables. And I don’t mentor people who want to learn some…

That "flexibility" means precarity as the majority of gig employees do this full-time:

>In California, the legislation will affect at least one million workers who have been on the receiving end of a decades-long trend of outsourcing and franchising work, making employer-worker relationships more arm’s-length. Many people have been pushed into contractor status with no access to basic protections like a minimum wage and unemployment insurance. Ride-hailing drivers, food-delivery couriers, janitors, nail salon workers, construction workers and franchise owners could now all be reclassified as employees.

Also, classifying them as employees doesn't mean that flexibility is gone:

>Uber and Lyft have repeatedly warned that they will have to start scheduling drivers in advance if they are employees, reducing drivers’ ability to work when and where they want.

>Experts said that there is nothing in the bill that requires employees to work set shifts, and that Uber and Lyft are legally entitled to continue allowing drivers to make their own scheduling decisions.

>In practice, Uber and Lyft might choose to limit the number of drivers who can work during slow hours or in less busy markets, where drivers may not generate enough in fares to justify their payroll costs as employees. That could lead to a reduced need for drivers over all.

>But Veena Dubal, a professor at the University of California Hastings College of the Law, said it would still generally be advantageous for Uber and Lyft to rely on incentives like bonus pay to ensure they had enough drivers on the road to adjust to customer demand much more nimbly than if they scheduled drivers in advance.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#299

Post by Multiplayer » Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 2:15 PM UTC

jeffasinger wrote: post #268

nickjj wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m in NYC and honestly can’t figure out how to legally hire a studio assistant for a few hours a week without being at risk for any of a number of lawsuit vectors. To my understanding (not a lawyer / accountant) if you hire someone part time like that you're not obligated to pay for their insurance or anything like that. You just write off what you paid them as a business expense and send them a 1099 at the end of…

Also not an accountant or lawyer, but I think that if you're paying someone by the hour, and directing them as to how they should do they job, they need to be classified as an employee, not a contractor. This means a W2 instead of a 1099, plus you need to pay them on a fixed schedule, pay social security and medicare taxes (and likely other taxes depending on jurisdiction) on their wages, deduct income taxes, do an I…

We had some employees in NYC earlier this year. They make California employment laws look simple in comparison.

Definitely, Definitely get a service there that knows how to handle all of the fine details.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#300

Post by moate » Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 2:16 PM UTC

fuzz4lyfe wrote: post #137

dpau wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in the US I'm personally forgoing health insurance to pursue my craft while developing software on the side for extra income. One medical emergency will end it all. I've often wondered myself if, in a country with universal healthcare, people would be more willing to take risks and start businesses, pursue their art, develop inventions, etc. Would love to see an analysis of the economic cost of not having univer…

>One medical emergency will end it all. One medical emergency and your credit will be ruined. Wait a seven years without contracting the debt collector and the debt becomes uncollectible. After three years roughly three quarters of the effect on your credit will evaporate. That's what actually happens beyond the hyperbolic political grandstanding. Remember kids, if you get a bill that you can't possibly pay. Don't pa…

Hello. Human who did this.

This advice is extremely glib and more of a headache than you're is making it out to be. Sure, there's techniques for deal with this shit. It doesn't change the fact that that it's still a giant pile of shit to deal with, and it would just be much better if we as a collective society didn't allow one medical emergency to cause problems for you of this magnitude.

Also, if you're trying to be your own business and your credit is ruined, what do you think happens to that business? My guess? OP was right, and he has to end it all.