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The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

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Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#151
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even though it is true, it is dwarfed in magnitude by the repression in the communist world. From 1789 to the first Empire was only 15 years; to the Thermidorean Reaction even shorter. > The French revolution was attempting to terrorise a political ellite. That's a very generous interpretation. It's certainly what Robespierre would say, sure, but it's just as much what Lenin would say.

We are talking about 4 orders of magnitude differences, of a third of the population in some country. It’s not a matter of a few years. I am not trying to defend the French revolution, which actions were the antithesis of the values it pretended to promote. But for all its horrors, the french revolution wasn’t in the business of mass slaughtering its own population.

> But for all its horrors, the french revolution wasn’t in the business of mass slaughtering its own population.

The French Revolution was strangled in its crib while it's mass killing was still accelerating, and it's leaders themselves killed en massé by counterrevolutionaries; it wasn't in business very long for that reason, a fact that future revolutionaries were keenly aware of and eager to avoid.

The stated ideology of the 1790s Paris Commune might be more attractive to modern democratic capitalists than that of the Bolsheviks, et al.,, but the main reason that the former has less of a history of violence than the latter is that they lost very early on in their program of exterminating an ever-expanding list of perceived enemies of the revolution, not some greater humanitarianism.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the political theory question might be: Why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been authoritarian? All communist governments (not all communist movements, and this is actually the source of many breaches between communist movements that aren't governments, particularly in the West, and communist governments and the movements aligned with them) are rooted in Leninist vanguardism, a specific a…

Excellent post. One nit: The American Revolution was led by elites, if by "elite" you mean "wealthy and influential". But it was not led by elites, if by "elite" you mean "nobility". In that sense, it was quite anti-elite.

> But it was not led by elites, if by "elite" you mean "nobility"

It was led by the landed elites, which didn't happen to generally have titles of nobility in the colonies, because the evolution from a feudal to a capitalist property structure had progressed pretty far before the US was colonized.

OTOH, the difference between a slave estate and an English feudal estate is mainly that the master of the former has even greater power over and less obligation to the subjects, so the difference between the elites you are distinguishing may be even less substantive than it seems at first glance.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do I see Voeglin on HN?

You've got to admit that "Immanentize the eschaton" is a great phrase. I ran into it first through Robert Anton Wilson which I'd bet is typical of HN readers who know it. But mostly I'm finishing up The House of Government so the issue is quite on my mind.

Just for the sake of sharing what no one has ever been interested in hearing, Voeglin traced the concept of the "third age that will never end" back to Joachim of Flora's writings... and from what Wikipedia tells me, you likely know that already from reading Wilson!

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahhh, thank you. So not "Internet" as technical superproject, but "Internet" as emergent supersociety. (I don't believe that anarchists actually invented either of those things, but at least I get the reference now!) "We will create a civilization of the Mind in Cyberspace." Gosh, I had forgotten what heady times the Nineties were!

The anarchists didn't need to invent it, it described what people were already participating in. Anarchy is simply the natural state of man without an imposed hierarchy. The scientific community is an anarchy.

> Anarchy is simply the natural state of man without an imposed hierarchy.

Ah, majoritarianism with violent wars against outsiders.

https://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/features/bloody-stone...

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't in preventive prison due to their political ideas but they're being accused of committing very specific and serious crimes, like rebellion, sedition, and embezzlement. The whole trial has been live streamed. About your second question, making threats, insulting the Crown, and glorification of terrorism is not just 'singing about the king'. That's not free speech.

> They aren't in preventive prison due to their political ideas but they're being accused of committing very specific and serious crimes, like rebellion, sedition, and embezzlement. Well, rebellion and sedition _are_ political ideas. Political ideas are not just "more taxes/less taxes", or "healthcare for all/private healthcare" and other regular everyday party differences. And of course, the kind of political ideas…

Generally speaking, everything is political but I'm afraid you're confusing ideas with actions.

Those politicians are not in prison for 'having an idea', they're in there for actively acting against the current Spanish Constitution, against the Spanish Law, and against the regional Catalonian Law as well.

All of that using Public Funds.

About free speech, it's a Right with some limits, as any Right. For example, tell me whether in your opinion, thanks to that Right, anyone can 'sing' promoting hate against transsexuals, or promoting to kill Afro-Americans, or to torture children.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They aren't in preventive prison due to their political ideas but they're being accused of committing very specific and serious crimes, like rebellion, sedition, and embezzlement. Well, rebellion and sedition _are_ political ideas. Political ideas are not just "more taxes/less taxes", or "healthcare for all/private healthcare" and other regular everyday party differences. And of course, the kind of political ideas…

Generally speaking, everything is political but I'm afraid you're confusing ideas with actions. Those politicians are not in prison for 'having an idea', they're in there for actively acting against the current Spanish Constitution, against the Spanish Law, and against the regional Catalonian Law as well. All of that using Public Funds. About free speech, it's a Right with some limits, as any Right. For example, tell…

>Those politicians are not in prison for 'having an idea', they're in there for actively acting against the current Spanish Constitution, against the Spanish Law, and against the regional Catalonian Law as well.

Well, wasn't Mandela in prison for similar things? Acting against the "current law" is not enough in itself to make one's imprisonment just.

Especially if they didn't hurt/kill anyone, but acted politically (spoke, organized, etc), even if the established laws forbids it.

>About free speech, it's a Right with some limits, as any Right. For example, tell me whether in your opinion, thanks to that Right, anyone can 'sing' promoting hate against transsexuals, or promoting to kill Afro-Americans, or to torture children.

It wouldn't be nice, but they should be able to sing those things. For example there are all kinds of e.g. death metal songs that speak of killing people in satanic rituals, torturing virgins, heck even torturing children should be there. Should metal be banned?

More importantly, when there are "some limits" (as opposed to no), it's not just the blatantly clear cases (e.g. don't talk against killing afro-americans) that are problematic, but the gray ones.

One man's freedom fighter's are another man's terrorists for example, so e.g. the Clash singing about Sandinista could be said to "promote terrorism".

Or e.g. "promoting hate towards the Crown". Well, "God save the Queen, she's not a human being, it's a fascist regime" by Sex Pistols, is a mighty fine song.

Or how about interpretation? Someone might write a song about e.g. black crime in their neighborhood, and it could be interpreted as "racism against blacks" if they're not black themselves.

Or they could consider some "democracy bringing war" celebrated in the media and government, as "resource grabbing" attempt. Should they be able to sing about it?

And tons of other things besides.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#157
post #112

David Crook, mentioned in the article as working for the anti-POUM had a fascinating life. Apparently he apologised for the mentioned spying. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Crook https://www.theguardian.com/news/2000/dec/18/guardianobituar... Hampstead Heath to Tian An Men - The autobiography of David Crook http://www.davidcrook.net/simple/main.html

Crook's books on living in Chinese communism sound interesting, I managed to buy them both used on Abebooks. I've always wanted to read what day-to-day life was like in early Communist china. I've found a lot of older Chinese people I talk to don't like talking about it or change the subject pretty quickly, which I understand, people don't like talking about being poor. The person I last talked to was a teacher in Ch…

Also look up Sidney Rittenberg [0]. He wrote a book and there's a documentary on him. He was friends with Mao and imprisoned by him. He wrote a book [1].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Rittenberg

[1] https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00CPJB7H4/ref=dp-kindle-redirec...

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you honestly say that you can't speak freely in Spain? Yes, I believe you can. Where to start? The disgusting re-appearance of political prisoners in Spain, for Catalan leaders expressing the idea that Catalunya should determine its own destiny, while Spanish politicos laughably and hypocritically complain about the same in Venezuela (but to the twisted fascist mind, their political prisoners are just 'criminal…

Sorry but that is not true at all. There aren't 'political prisoners' by any means in Spain. There are politicians in prison, and that's quite different. Their imprisonment without bail follows the Spanish Law, based on democratic principles, and it's quite dishonourable to compare Spain and Venezuela political situations. On the other hand, nobody destroyed any edition of 'El Jueves', please see https://www.eldiario…

>Yes, free speech is well protected in Spain.

Except when it isn't.

Articles 490 and 491 of the criminal code govern lèse-majesté. Any person who defames or insults the king, the queen, their ancestors or their descendants can be imprisoned for up to two years

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lèse-majesté

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sorry but that is not true at all. There aren't 'political prisoners' by any means in Spain. There are politicians in prison, and that's quite different. Unless they are in prison because e.g. they were driving under influence, or stealing money, or hit someone, or some other such crime, then it's not different at all... > About Valtonyc, the rapper you're talking about 'in exile to avoid being remanded for singing…

They aren't in preventive prison due to their political ideas but they're being accused of committing very specific and serious crimes, like rebellion, sedition, and embezzlement. The whole trial has been live streamed. About your second question, making threats, insulting the Crown, and glorification of terrorism is not just 'singing about the king'. That's not free speech.

Oh, come on! It's the 21st century. "Insulting the Crown", whatever that is, should totally be protected as free speech. Rebellion and sedition sound really backward and dusty too. Yarr, like some pirate-age stuff, man...

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#160
post #123

What I find interesting, is the great number of people - specially in the last decade when reading 1984 suddenly became popular - that keeps telling us all that Orwell's works are a warning specifically against fascism and point Orwell's role in Spain as proof that he was himself a communist. Orwell left quite clear that after having seen both Nazism and Communism in action, he was staunchly against both forms of tot…

> he was staunchly against both forms of totalitarianism Indeed! But unlike capitalism, communism does not require totalitarian structures of power. They're actually quite incompatible. Empires describing themselves as "communist" are more so "state capitalist". The USSR was not a classless society nor a free society so it cannot be called communism: some people had more rights/resources than others (the opposite of…

Orwell was not a Trotskyist. Aligned with them briefly due to circumstances but he was skeptical of whether Trotsky's strain of dictatorship would have been any better than that of Stalin.
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