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California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

nytimes.com

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Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#171

Post by imglorp »

lovetocode wrote: post #134
droidno9 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The burden of proof would be on Uber and Lyft to show: (B) The person performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business. This would be a hard sell because Uber and Lyft are in the business of providing transportation to people. They may argue that they're only providing the platform that enables drivers to provide rides, but considering the amount of evidence that says otherwise, I'd like…

I’d have to side with Uber and I don’t think their lawyers will have a hard time arguing it. Uber doesn’t own, lease or maintain the vehicles. If the argument is that Uber is a transportation company than how can a transportation company operate if they don’t have any vehicles?

On this test, I think they'll argue they're a software company - they make apps to facilitate a relationship between rider and driver.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#172

Post by wastedhours »

mikekchar wrote: post #150
droidno9 wrote: post #43

For those of you who want to read the bill: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.x... . The pertinent part of the bill: 2750.3. (a) (1) For purposes of the provisions of this code and the Unemployment Insurance Code, and for the wage orders of the Industrial Welfare Commission, a person providing labor or services for remuneration shall be considered an employee rather than an independent contra…

As a software contractor... (A) and (B) are terrifying. I think (A) means you really can't do contract work while working under the direction of a manager, or PGM. So you essentially have to be doing work for hire rather than filling in a specialist role for a defined period of time. (B)... Wow... So if the company is a software development company, they can't hire contractors??? I really hope I'm reading that wrong.…

My reading is that it's similar to the UK's IR35 regulation? Do any UK contractors here have any additional experience of working in/out of IR35 to give some context?

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#173

Post by scottishfiction »

RonaldSchleifer wrote: post #141
jaaron wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often wonder about this cost to the US economy due to a lack of universal health care: how much productivity is lost due to people staying in jobs just for health care, how many businesses not started, etc.

I doubt you are thinking of that “cost” properly … no one seems to accurately as far as I have been able to tell over several decades now. The whole debate over healthcare is dominated by one of two different mindsets; either based in utter ignorance and wishful thinking, or nefarious and malicious manipulation and conning. The people lauding the wonderful beautified “universal healthcare” (which, btw, they lied to y…

Why is the US the only developed country where private vs public healthcare has been a consistent point of debate? Why are the brainwashed masses of the other developed nations (of which I am a citizen) not outraged by this 'con job' that we have fallen victim to?

Of course this exact same thought process can be applied to other american 'quirks'. e.g. mass shootings and gun control.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#175

Post by Cthulhu_ »

mikekchar wrote: post #150
droidno9 wrote: post #43

For those of you who want to read the bill: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.x... . The pertinent part of the bill: 2750.3. (a) (1) For purposes of the provisions of this code and the Unemployment Insurance Code, and for the wage orders of the Industrial Welfare Commission, a person providing labor or services for remuneration shall be considered an employee rather than an independent contra…

As a software contractor... (A) and (B) are terrifying. I think (A) means you really can't do contract work while working under the direction of a manager, or PGM. So you essentially have to be doing work for hire rather than filling in a specialist role for a defined period of time. (B)... Wow... So if the company is a software development company, they can't hire contractors??? I really hope I'm reading that wrong.…

If what you do as a software consultant is outside of the usual activities of the company you work for I suspect you should be fine.

Uber however is a taxi company and the brunt of their primary activities are done (atm) by contractors. Driving people around is their core business - even if they will probably give the defense that they're only a middle man with an app that links independent drivers up with people looking for a ride.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#176

Post by paul_f »

RonaldSchleifer wrote: post #128
mirimir wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is misleading to lump people billing at $100s/hr with drivers, shoppers, dog walkers, etc. But what's the median billing rate for the "gig economy"? Given my experience with consulting, it seems odd to use the "gig" label. But whatever, it did suck to pay ~$1K per month for health insurance.

My thought too. I also did not get the sense that someone who “ended up billing at $300/hr and was still struggling with month to month work is someone who really realized the full cost of self-employment, because that is what he was really doing, employing himself … not “just like you guys” gigs. If you’re billing at $300/hr and working when and how you want, it actually seems immensely disingenuous to try to associ…

Imposing? Nobody is forcing you to work in a "Gig economy" job. Many people like the freedom and flexibility and now seem to want all the benefits of a full time job too.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#177

Post by 8draco8 »

mrfusion wrote: post #161
mikekchar wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a software contractor... (A) and (B) are terrifying. I think (A) means you really can't do contract work while working under the direction of a manager, or PGM. So you essentially have to be doing work for hire rather than filling in a specialist role for a defined period of time. (B)... Wow... So if the company is a software development company, they can't hire contractors??? I really hope I'm reading that wrong.…

Wow. You might be right about B. That could be interesting. (I don’t think A is any different than existing federal laws)

If I read this correctly then if a software house wants to hire software developers as contractors then they can't do that because building software is their main course of business.

However companies like Airbnb (hospitality) and Uber (ride sharing) will be able to hire programmers as contractors because writing software is not main source of income for those firms.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#178

Post by paul_f »

throwawaynihil wrote: post #72
username90 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California loves making bandaid state fixes to federal problems, I think this is the wrong way to go. Problem: You need a full-time job at a company to get benefits such as healthcare. Californian solution: Reclassify as many as possible as full-time workers. Problem: USA immigration laws are horribly inflexible. Californian solution: Make it illegal to go after illegal immigrants. I don't think that these passive-ag…

> California loves making bandaid state fixes to federal problems, I think this is the wrong way to go. You just hit the nail on the head. The real problem is that California is grossly under-represented in government, thanks to the founding fathers and gerrymandering. We have to slap together these hacks because otherwise we would wait centuries to get any real change out of the Fed. As for "USA's democracy", screw…

How does gerrymandering affect California's representation at the Federal level? And the makeup of the Senate? It's that darn constitution again :-)

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#179

Post by bluedino »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #175
mikekchar wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a software contractor... (A) and (B) are terrifying. I think (A) means you really can't do contract work while working under the direction of a manager, or PGM. So you essentially have to be doing work for hire rather than filling in a specialist role for a defined period of time. (B)... Wow... So if the company is a software development company, they can't hire contractors??? I really hope I'm reading that wrong.…

If what you do as a software consultant is outside of the usual activities of the company you work for I suspect you should be fine. Uber however is a taxi company and the brunt of their primary activities are done (atm) by contractors. Driving people around is their core business - even if they will probably give the defense that they're only a middle man with an app that links independent drivers up with people loo…

What about FedEx? Aren't most of their drivers contractors?

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#180

Post by bluedino »

pishpash wrote: post #159
zaarn wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The employees have to buy and maintain the vehicles themselves, doesn't really absolve Uber from being a transportation company, after all, they make transportation happen on their platform as their main business effort.

Nonsense. eBay makes selling happen on their platform, does that make eBay a store and all sellers employees of eBay? Uber also is a technology company just like eBay.

eBay sells goods, Uber doesn't.
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