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California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

nytimes.com

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Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#141
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American living in Ontario, Canada for a time, I literally COULD NOT BELIEVE the gig economy there. It is what the US aspires to: a guy owns a snow plow business, employs 30 other gig workers 6mos a year. A woman does city/house hunting tours. Contractors are consistently self-employed. On and on. These folks, earning enough to live, and (to another commentor’s point) without fear of medical bills/issues. That…

I often wonder about this cost to the US economy due to a lack of universal health care: how much productivity is lost due to people staying in jobs just for health care, how many businesses not started, etc.

I doubt you are thinking of that “cost” properly … no one seems to accurately as far as I have been able to tell over several decades now. The whole debate over healthcare is dominated by one of two different mindsets; either based in utter ignorance and wishful thinking, or nefarious and malicious manipulation and conning.

The people lauding the wonderful beautified “universal healthcare” (which, btw, they lied to you about never wanting to implement during pre-Obama care con job that made the Health sector rich and the middle class poorer) do t ever actually account all the costs when discussing it, and I will just assume you are doing the same from a point of ignorance, and not intentional deception.

Here is a representative example of a wonderful splendrous worker with universal healthcare in Europe.

1), as surveys here too show, for the same job, you’ll be making about 50-75% the salary of an American equivalent (see following points).

2) Your tax burden on that immensely lower income will be approaching 30% effective income tax (FYI, e.g., the 42% tax rat starts applying at €55,000, just for a reference point … and no, that is not a typo)

3) on that lower income and higher taxes amount, you then get to pay huge retirement taxes too, on the order of effectively approaching 20%, with heart wrenching and soul sucking outcomes when you see the “pension” people are given after a life of paying into an utterly incompetent and failed retirement system. For reference, think of paying into a retirement system at going on 20% of your income and then getting about 1/4 of your salary to live off in “retirement”. It’s sad and sick and immoral. If people had been able to simply invest their own money in a global fund, they would probably be swimming in money in retirement, but instead they were pillaged and plundered in order to give them a pittance in “retirement”. It’s really a morally bankrupted and depraved system.

4) so now that we’ve reduced your already lower income by around 50% from taxes and a con job retirement system, let’s talk about the health care system cost that will run you about €300 per month in employee costs every month just for a single person, not counting the employer contribution of another ~€900; again, for a single individual. And on top of that, you are also going to have copays to see the doctor (albeit about 1/2 to 1/3 of the cost in the USA, so you get to save $5-15), but you also get to go to a doctor for a prescription and a pharmacy to buy things like basic over the counter medications like ibuprofen .… that comes in blister packs of 20 you get “for free”(see tax burden and health insurance costs above for reference of level of “freeness”). Again, no, those are not typos or errors, they are very much representative examples.

4) gasoline is taxed at 100%, in most European countries or more, with talk of increasing it. And no, again, that is not a typo. For reference, in the USA gasoline is taxed at around the 20-25% range. The reason I mention that, is because it’s not only a taxation on mobility, it again sucks the disposable income of the lower income people dry.

And none of that even goes into the fact that medical care is determined by the insurance that pulls typical insurance things where when it’s time to pay out all the sudden the medical care is deemed not necessary.

The saddest thing about the health care cost debate is that it seems to be driven by a con job to trick people into a trap that will enslave them to authoritarian control even more without any benefits from it, if not only more detrimental effects like Obamacare that only served to drive up costs and then peg them at new levels that made health insurance companies and the medical sector richer, while Medicare fraud and pull pushing has run amok.

I actually find it curious that especially this community would not realize that the ideal system is not a centralized monolith running on a con job and no backups, but a highly competitive decentralized system forced to be transparent and accountable. But I guess whatever is driving the centralization of power and control among the tech tyrant FAANGs, seems to have also latched onto people’s minds here maybe.

Please excuse any errors because English is not my first language

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The burden of proof would be on Uber and Lyft to show: (B) The person performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business. This would be a hard sell because Uber and Lyft are in the business of providing transportation to people. They may argue that they're only providing the platform that enables drivers to provide rides, but considering the amount of evidence that says otherwise, I'd like…

I’d have to side with Uber and I don’t think their lawyers will have a hard time arguing it. Uber doesn’t own, lease or maintain the vehicles. If the argument is that Uber is a transportation company than how can a transportation company operate if they don’t have any vehicles?

The employees have to buy and maintain the vehicles themselves, doesn't really absolve Uber from being a transportation company, after all, they make transportation happen on their platform as their main business effort.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#143
post #71

Can anybody here with proper experience break down the "ABC" test for me? It seems to me like the "C" part (that the work is "part of a company’s regular business") applies to literally any company who would hire a freelancer to work on their product or service.

If it works remotely similar to how fake self-employment works in germany then as a freelancer it's sufficient to show that you work for more than 1 company. If you exclusively work for 1 company, AND ONLY THAT COMPANY, as a freelancer in germany, you and the company you work for are at risk.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is misleading to lump people billing at $100s/hr with drivers, shoppers, dog walkers, etc. But what's the median billing rate for the "gig economy"? Given my experience with consulting, it seems odd to use the "gig" label. But whatever, it did suck to pay ~$1K per month for health insurance.

My thought too. I also did not get the sense that someone who “ended up billing at $300/hr and was still struggling with month to month work is someone who really realized the full cost of self-employment, because that is what he was really doing, employing himself … not “just like you guys” gigs. If you’re billing at $300/hr and working when and how you want, it actually seems immensely disingenuous to try to associ…

> I also guarantee he could have gotten health insurance, he just did not feel comfortable paying the roughly $1,000 to $2,000 per month it would have cost because his business pipeline was not full of work consistently.

I don't think it's abnormal not to want to pay those rates.

$1,000+ a month is absolutely insane for health insurance and at $2,000 a month you're now beyond the cost of most rent for something that you'll hopefully never need to use for decades, but more importantly you have no options. It's either pay massive fees (+ copays, etc.) due to no real competition or go without insurance. For the last few years no insurance also came with paying thousands upon thousands of dollars a year in fines too.

I am an uninsured freelance worker too for reference. But that plan definitely wouldn't work out if I had a family to insure, and then the costs are astronomical to the point where you would be in debt and have no savings unless you were absolutely crushing it.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#145
post #107

For those of you who want to read the bill: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.x... . The pertinent part of the bill: 2750.3. (a) (1) For purposes of the provisions of this code and the Unemployment Insurance Code, and for the wage orders of the Industrial Welfare Commission, a person providing labor or services for remuneration shall be considered an employee rather than an independent contra…

Thank you for posting the exact wording of the bill. Which of these three clauses are not satisfied by drivers for a ridesharing company?

The control one is the main one here.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#146
post #71

Can anybody here with proper experience break down the "ABC" test for me? It seems to me like the "C" part (that the work is "part of a company’s regular business") applies to literally any company who would hire a freelancer to work on their product or service.

There are exceptions for certain "professional services" providers if certain factors are satisfied. Curiously enough, software developer isn't one of the exceptions. (c) (1) Subdivision (a) and the holding in Dynamex do not apply to a contract for “professional services” as defined below, and instead the determination of whether the individual is an employee or independent contractor shall be governed by Borello if…

Why am I not surprised its keeping us greasy engineers in their place.

Just as in the UK actual Self employed contractors on a 3 month contract get hit by IR35 but Barristers working on the same case for a decade do not.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#147

"Ride-hailing drivers hailed the bill’s passage." - I wonder how happy they will be when their job simply goes away because of that bill. It's terribly misguided and anti-freedom. I think it is a problem if companies like Uber are not honest with their employees, like neglecting to mention that their cars may break down and require maintenance, which should be factored into the income. But that is about honest inform…

> "I wonder how happy they will be when their job simply goes away because of that bill."

Taxis are... not "going away". They may get more expensive. Taxi companies are simply going to make a comeback.

Uber was making it easier/cheaper for passangers - it did very little for the drivers themselves.

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The burden of proof would be on Uber and Lyft to show: (B) The person performs work that is outside the usual course of the hiring entity’s business. This would be a hard sell because Uber and Lyft are in the business of providing transportation to people. They may argue that they're only providing the platform that enables drivers to provide rides, but considering the amount of evidence that says otherwise, I'd like…

I’d have to side with Uber and I don’t think their lawyers will have a hard time arguing it. Uber doesn’t own, lease or maintain the vehicles. If the argument is that Uber is a transportation company than how can a transportation company operate if they don’t have any vehicles?

They don't own, lease or maintain the vehicles because they're trying to claim that the drivers aren't employees.

It's like saying that the drivers aren't employees because Uber doesn't provide health benefits.

Companies routinely get in trouble for forcing their employees to buy their own equipment. But it still happens all the time because of the power imbalance even when they're employees.

This is one of the many thing which makes all this such an existential threat to Lyft/Uber. Even just when it comes to minimum wage there will be a huge fight because so many drivers make less than that when the equipment is taken into account

Re: California passes bill that classifies gig economy workers as employees

#150

For those of you who want to read the bill: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billCompareClient.x... . The pertinent part of the bill: 2750.3. (a) (1) For purposes of the provisions of this code and the Unemployment Insurance Code, and for the wage orders of the Industrial Welfare Commission, a person providing labor or services for remuneration shall be considered an employee rather than an independent contra…

As a software contractor... (A) and (B) are terrifying. I think (A) means you really can't do contract work while working under the direction of a manager, or PGM. So you essentially have to be doing work for hire rather than filling in a specialist role for a defined period of time. (B)... Wow... So if the company is a software development company, they can't hire contractors???

I really hope I'm reading that wrong. I might want to do work for a California company one day ;-)

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