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The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

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Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#41

Post by TaylorAlexander »

aalleavitch wrote: post #13

Unlike authoritarian communism, anarcho-socialism never got the chance to succeed or fail on its own merits. It was strangled in the crib.

Anarcho socialism hasn’t succeeded yet, but I still believe it must succeed in the future if we are ever to see real freedom for the masses and to avoid near total destruction of the Earth’s biosphere.

If anyone wants to downvote me, I ask that you choose one of two alternatives. First, tell me why you want to downvote. Or, read this article by Albert Einstein talking about the necessity of socialism: https://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#42

Post by NeedMoreTea »

gedy wrote: post #5

I'm not versed enough in political theory to know myself, but why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been so riddled with purges, paranoia, and violence?

The sort of people who might secretly incite and then stage a successful armed revolution and coup are probably expecting a coup, or at least a few revolutionaries in every party meeting. Not restricted to the left though.

Stalin got there by being a violent thug, he would stay there by being a violent thug. Ditto Franco in Spain, for at least a decade or so after the end of the civil war.

Repression of scientists, and minorities of all kinds? Difference of any kind from the party/dictator's view is to be mistrusted, thus purged, or at the very least repressed. See Saudi Arabia - which Franco's Spain resembled in its later years, with extreme repression of women and religious dogma.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#43

Post by SequoiaHope »

gedy wrote: post #5

I'm not versed enough in political theory to know myself, but why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been so riddled with purges, paranoia, and violence?

Actually there were a lot of socialists and communists who were against the violent tactics Lenin and Stalin. Those people got murdered by the regimes they opposed. The communists you and I learn about in school were the authoritarian communists, and they were indeed bad because authoritarianism is bad. They were violent because they were authoritarian, not because they were communist. Now Marx did advocate for some violence I believe, but he had contemporary critics including Michael Bakunin.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#44

Post by gmfawcett »

because1 wrote: post #31
aalleavitch wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m interested to hear what part of my statement people seem to disagree with: this was largely the thesis of Homage to Catalonia. It was the point behind most of Orwell’s writing, he was an anarcho-syndicalist.

Even tough the internet is an invention of the anarchist movement, like any cool stuff it’s now filled with people who are just trying to make some quick and big money. And these people don’t want to argue with you because time = money.

> the internet is an invention of the anarchist movement

Could you elaborate on that statement? I've heard this same notion twice now in the past couple months, and I have no idea what it's based upon.

It seems far easier to argue that the Internet is an invention of the military-industrial complex. I would enjoy hearing your rationale!

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#45

Post by NeedMoreTea »

SequoiaHope wrote: post #39
aalleavitch wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m interested to hear what part of my statement people seem to disagree with: this was largely the thesis of Homage to Catalonia. It was the point behind most of Orwell’s writing, he was an anarcho-syndicalist.

People on HN downvote comments that are pro anarcho socialism without saying why they disagree. HN is a very capitalist place apparently. It would be nice if we could really engage in these discussions, but people seem to want to just downvote without comment.

There's also a good degree of US interpretation of terms, where apparently communism, fascism, socialism, democratic socialism and sometimes social democrat are all indistinguishable from the USSR.

It can make some discussions seem rather futile. :)

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#46

Post by NeedMoreTea »

gmfawcett wrote: post #44
because1 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even tough the internet is an invention of the anarchist movement, like any cool stuff it’s now filled with people who are just trying to make some quick and big money. And these people don’t want to argue with you because time = money.

> the internet is an invention of the anarchist movement Could you elaborate on that statement? I've heard this same notion twice now in the past couple months, and I have no idea what it's based upon. It seems far easier to argue that the Internet is an invention of the military-industrial complex. I would enjoy hearing your rationale!

It stems from John Perry Barlow and the Cyberspace Declaration of Independence.

There was a lot of discussion of what the emerging net was, and what it was going to be. A society, a state, governable or ungovernable, above or separate from such things, etc. Which led to the Declaration.

https://www.eff.org/cyberspace-independence

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#47

Post by Sag0Sag0 »

cheaprentalyeti wrote: post #20
weirdstuff wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s amazing how controversial Marx is 150 years later, and I’ve only ever met one actual “authority” on the matter outside Marx’s actual writings. (And I’m in economics!) Makes me think there’s something very lasting about his ideas, moral interpretations aside.

It's a very compelling religion of the modern age. That doesn't mean it can't be wrong.

[flagged]

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#48

Post by systematical »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #41
aalleavitch wrote: post #13

Unlike authoritarian communism, anarcho-socialism never got the chance to succeed or fail on its own merits. It was strangled in the crib.

Anarcho socialism hasn’t succeeded yet, but I still believe it must succeed in the future if we are ever to see real freedom for the masses and to avoid near total destruction of the Earth’s biosphere. If anyone wants to downvote me, I ask that you choose one of two alternatives. First, tell me why you want to downvote. Or, read this article by Albert Einstein talking about the necessity of socialism: https://monthly…

Capitalism will reach its end one day, long after we are gone, but that will be because of its own technologic achievements and not because of 19th-century socialist philosophy. Capitalism will become so efficient at some point that in its quest for more and more efficiency, it will end resource scarcity. Once scarcity is eliminated, capitalism "withers" away.

That's my hope anyway. In the short-term, I'd like to see free markets begin erasing more borders and reducing the number of nations. Hopefully, the recent nationalist fad is just that and we can get to more EU style setups, more globalism, and more cooperation. A disgusting amount of resources is spent on the military. Capitalism has the ability to solve our problems. Borders are in the way.

Edit: Is it the socialists, anarchists, or capitalists downvoting me? Hard to say. My ideas definitely don't have many friends.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#49

Post by Sag0Sag0 »

wait-a-minute wrote: post #21
weirdstuff wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s amazing how controversial Marx is 150 years later, and I’ve only ever met one actual “authority” on the matter outside Marx’s actual writings. (And I’m in economics!) Makes me think there’s something very lasting about his ideas, moral interpretations aside.

It's almost as if it hasn't even been 50 years since people were last dying because of the evil extremist ideologies from the 1900s! Tens of millions dead in the last hundred years.

Glad your such a critic of US foreign policy. Didn't expect to meet someone like you on Hacker News.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#50

Post by systematical »

SequoiaHope wrote: post #43
gedy wrote: post #5

I'm not versed enough in political theory to know myself, but why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been so riddled with purges, paranoia, and violence?

Actually there were a lot of socialists and communists who were against the violent tactics Lenin and Stalin. Those people got murdered by the regimes they opposed. The communists you and I learn about in school were the authoritarian communists, and they were indeed bad because authoritarianism is bad. They were violent because they were authoritarian, not because they were communist. Now Marx did advocate for some…

Do you ever find it odd that the "bad guys" always seem to subvert these movements? It seems to me that socialism has a 100% failure rate.
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