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The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

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Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#21

Post by wait-a-minute »

weirdstuff wrote: post #15
wait-a-minute wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because communism is inherently a violent and paranoid ideology. It's blatantly obvious even in the foundational literature from Marx. Marx openly advocated violence and threatened violence against anyone who was opposed to the proletariat. Not only that, but he construed a framework in which anything opposing the proletariat, including "class antagonisms" that could be literally anything, should be opposed with forc…

It’s amazing how controversial Marx is 150 years later, and I’ve only ever met one actual “authority” on the matter outside Marx’s actual writings. (And I’m in economics!) Makes me think there’s something very lasting about his ideas, moral interpretations aside.

It's almost as if it hasn't even been 50 years since people were last dying because of the evil extremist ideologies from the 1900s! Tens of millions dead in the last hundred years.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#22

Post by aalleavitch »

aalleavitch wrote: post #13

Unlike authoritarian communism, anarcho-socialism never got the chance to succeed or fail on its own merits. It was strangled in the crib.

I’m interested to hear what part of my statement people seem to disagree with: this was largely the thesis of Homage to Catalonia. It was the point behind most of Orwell’s writing, he was an anarcho-syndicalist.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#23

Post by DubiousPusher »

gedy wrote: post #5

I'm not versed enough in political theory to know myself, but why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been so riddled with purges, paranoia, and violence?

The premise and answer to your question depends on what you mean by "communist".

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#24

Post by cm2187 »

zentropia wrote: post #7
RangerScience wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hazard a guess that it has something to with most revolutions being riddle with purges, paranoia and violence, and then that most (AFAIK) modern revolutions are communist movements. In other words, AFAIK (which isn't far), it's a trait of revolutions, not of communist movements.

I think so. French Revolution had its Terror period.

Even though it is true, it is dwarfed in magnitude by the repression in the communist world. The French revolution was attempting to terrorise a political ellite. Communism was aiming at terrorising everyone.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#25

Post by WaxProlix »

oh_sigh wrote: post #16
RangerScience wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hazard a guess that it has something to with most revolutions being riddle with purges, paranoia and violence, and then that most (AFAIK) modern revolutions are communist movements. In other words, AFAIK (which isn't far), it's a trait of revolutions, not of communist movements.

Why were those things notably absent in the US revolution?

From dragonwriter's post elsewhere in the comments:

> Americans sometimes forget that what we call our “revolution” was not an anti-elite revolution but an elite-led regional separatist movement coordinated by the local governments acting in concert, and so avoided many of the challenges found in genuine revolutions.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#26

Post by paggle »

gedy wrote: post #5

I'm not versed enough in political theory to know myself, but why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been so riddled with purges, paranoia, and violence?

Because communist governments (among others) exert high levels of control. You can not control without applying force and you cannot apply force without violence.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#27

Post by Koshkin »

cheaprentalyeti wrote: post #18
RangerScience wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hazard a guess that it has something to with most revolutions being riddle with purges, paranoia and violence, and then that most (AFAIK) modern revolutions are communist movements. In other words, AFAIK (which isn't far), it's a trait of revolutions, not of communist movements.

Except that all communist countries as implemented not only started with revolution but follow a doctrine of the permanent revolution. Which is how they can be sixty or seventy years on and talking about the danger of counter-revolutionaries...

The danger is/was absolutely real. Counter-revolutionaries (both internal and external) in general and anti-communism in particular have always been a formidable force.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#28

Post by coldtea »

creato wrote: post #10
gedy wrote: post #5

I'm not versed enough in political theory to know myself, but why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been so riddled with purges, paranoia, and violence?

People fight against taxes. Now imagine how much harder they would fight if the tax man wanted 100% of their income and wealth. Now imagine what it takes for the tax man to overcome that resistance. Purges, paranoia, and violence sounds like just the start.

There are several reasons for the paranoia, but not "the taxman wanted 100%". That's more of an American liberal way of seeing it, and hardly what was going on for the masses at the time.

Characteristic of the paranoia is that the worst purges after all were against party members and top party elites themselves.

Not because any of them resisted the "tax man" (heck, they had wealth and preferential treatment), but because they could threaten Stalin or limit his control.

Similar with Mao in China. The bloody cultural revolution wasn't some mass murder of people resisting the party rule or the "taxman", but party elites splitting the people into factions and using them as proxies to fight internal party power struggles.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#29

Post by Symmetry »

gedy wrote: post #5

I'm not versed enough in political theory to know myself, but why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been so riddled with purges, paranoia, and violence?

Not at all, most democratic socialists like the Fabian society are willing to change their approach when they try something and it doesn't work. The result is mere inefficiency, not corpses piling up. If the SRs, say, had won the Russian Revolution things would probably have turned out basically all right.

But it was the Bolsheviks with their plan of communism immediately, not in 20 years, who won. They treated their political philosophy as a millenarian sect with "the dictatorship of the proletariat" substituting for the kingdom of God. When the eschaton fails to properly immanentize it can only be due to the opposition of sin and the Devil, by which we mean kulaks, wreckers, and traitors.

The problem isn't communism per say but a belief in having absolute truth and a vision of a perfect good that can justify any means.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#30

Post by Koshkin »

cm2187 wrote: post #24
zentropia wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think so. French Revolution had its Terror period.

Even though it is true, it is dwarfed in magnitude by the repression in the communist world. The French revolution was attempting to terrorise a political ellite. Communism was aiming at terrorising everyone.

The French revolution terrorized everyone, including its own leaders.
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