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There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work

37signals.com

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Re: There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work

#51

Post by jarin »

msbarnett wrote: post #44
danilocampos wrote: post #22

37signals is at their worst when they adopt this sanctimonious attitude. Say what you want about their juvenile tone, the criticisms on RTFHIG are mostly valid. What are we going to do next? Pillory literary, film and food critics because their insights are inconvenient to the sensitive feelings of creators in those realms? Come on. Creating things for other people has a long, rich history of criticism. Some valid, s…

We do pillory film, literary and food critics who are caught basing their review on a publicity still of the work in question. It is not unreasonable to expect a critic to watch/read/eat/use the film/book/food/UI in question before calling its creator a "fucking hack".

I think a screenshot is probably more than adequate if you're judging an application's visual appearance.

Re: There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work

#52

Post by jonhendry »

jzimdars wrote: post #20
jsdalton wrote: post #9

I agree that just shitting all over people's work is, well, shitty. But I disagree entirely that the anonymous critic behind Read the Fucking HIG ( http://readthefuckinghig.tumblr.com/ ) is out of line or that this kind of criticism is lacking in merit. Firstly, it's clearly a bit tongue in cheek: "The evil doctor cackled as the thunder struck his lightning rod, giving life and sentience to his unholy creation, splic…

He may be right. But he's not adding any value for anyone the way he points it out. I think the biggest problem I have with it is that he's insulting and attacking the people who made these apps. There is no reason for that.

If the developers who made these apps were, instead, writing novels of similar quality, their work would have been coldly rejected by publisher after publisher after publisher after publisher.

1. If you're going to create, you need a thick skin for rejection and criticism, constructive or otherwise.

2. Everyone has a certain amount of shitty work that they need to work out of their system before they get good. If nobody tells them their crap work is crappy, they'll probably keep making it like that and won't improve.

3. Even successful novelists can get to a point where they stop being edited, and their work from that point tends to be flabby, overlong, and not well-regarded compared to earlier work that actually was edited.

Re: There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work

#53

Post by jonhendry »

jzimdars wrote: post #20
jsdalton wrote: post #9

I agree that just shitting all over people's work is, well, shitty. But I disagree entirely that the anonymous critic behind Read the Fucking HIG ( http://readthefuckinghig.tumblr.com/ ) is out of line or that this kind of criticism is lacking in merit. Firstly, it's clearly a bit tongue in cheek: "The evil doctor cackled as the thunder struck his lightning rod, giving life and sentience to his unholy creation, splic…

He may be right. But he's not adding any value for anyone the way he points it out. I think the biggest problem I have with it is that he's insulting and attacking the people who made these apps. There is no reason for that.

Consider the similar site Photoshop Disasters. That mocks the designers who make the images. But it's had value in pointing out the ludicrous editing that fashion ads and magazines are guilty of, twisting women's bodies into ridiculous impossible forms.

And, to some extent, has probably created some pressure on advertisers to not do that, because they'll be mocked.

Re: There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work

#54

Post by msbarnett »

jakeg wrote: post #24

“Where the heck were you when the page was blank?” - Paul Butterworth Always such a bogus argument. This is what people say when they don't like your opinion but have no argument to counter, so they resort to a rhetorical that implies you have no authority on the issue. But the fact is you do not need to be a creator to criticize a creation legitimately. Sometimes specializing in just observation/criticism and not cr…

> Sometimes specializing in just observation/criticism and not creation allows you more time to think things over from the standpoint of analysis, whereas creation demands that a large portion of your mental energy goes to the creation process.

This sounds suspiciously like saying that you're an "ideas man". The reality is that the barrier to creation is so low in the digital world that if you are criticizing without bothering to learn how to create, I have a hard time telling you apart from the guys who would generously let me do all the work on their idea for 5% of the profit.

If you have opinions on good design, put them into practice; don't just stand on the sidelines cursing at everyone who is trying.

Re: There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work

#55

Post by msbarnett »

jarin wrote: post #51
msbarnett wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do pillory film, literary and food critics who are caught basing their review on a publicity still of the work in question. It is not unreasonable to expect a critic to watch/read/eat/use the film/book/food/UI in question before calling its creator a "fucking hack".

I think a screenshot is probably more than adequate if you're judging an application's visual appearance.

It's sufficient only if you conflate design and visual aesthetics.

Since the blog in question hammers on apps that don't follow the Apple HIG, a document dedicated to the argument that good design is a lot more than visual aesthetics, this is an oddly contradictory position for him to attempt to occupy.

Re: There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work

#56

Post by brudgers »

jsdalton wrote: post #9

I agree that just shitting all over people's work is, well, shitty. But I disagree entirely that the anonymous critic behind Read the Fucking HIG ( http://readthefuckinghig.tumblr.com/ ) is out of line or that this kind of criticism is lacking in merit. Firstly, it's clearly a bit tongue in cheek: "The evil doctor cackled as the thunder struck his lightning rod, giving life and sentience to his unholy creation, splic…

>"rage at the way Apple flouts the HIG."

I don't see any of the rage at http://readthefuckinghig.tumblr.com/ being directed at Apple. Somehow I suspect it would be hard for one who holds the guidelines in such reverence to do so.

Re: There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work

#57

Post by rmorrison »

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt, April 23, 1910

Re: There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work

#58

Post by danilocampos »

msbarnett wrote: post #55
jarin wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a screenshot is probably more than adequate if you're judging an application's visual appearance.

It's sufficient only if you conflate design and visual aesthetics . Since the blog in question hammers on apps that don't follow the Apple HIG, a document dedicated to the argument that good design is a lot more than visual aesthetics, this is an oddly contradictory position for him to attempt to occupy.

Have you even read the blog? The UIs in question are, for the most part, immediately recognizable as bad. It's not about artistic or aesthetic interpretation. It's about this is not how any sane or competent person would design UI.

Re: There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work

#59

Post by timruffles »

Criticism isn't often worth anything, just demonstrating a sterile person trying to find other things to do than make. Until we see some world class design from the anon behind FTFHIG, their opinion is worth 0.

Alexander Pope's Essay on Criticism -

'Let such teach others who themselves excel, And censure freely who have written well; Authors are partial to their wit, 'tis true, But are not Critics to their judgment too?'

Re: There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work

#60

Post by jasonlotito »

jakeg wrote: post #45
jasonlotito wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> . How it goes about that criticism and any unnecessary hostility is another issue. No, that's the issue. Dismissing that invalidates your entire comment.

I was responding to the bottom half of the article which makes the argument I referenced separately.

Then if you were, your second paragraph doesn't make any sense at all, and frankly, is pointless.
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