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The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

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Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#11

Post by AnimalMuppet »

gedy wrote: post #5

I'm not versed enough in political theory to know myself, but why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been so riddled with purges, paranoia, and violence?

All authoritarian movements and governments are. By their nature, they rule by power, not by "consent of the governed". Those at the top always are few, and rule through others. And they know that if those others stop obeying their orders, it's all over. They fear that someone - anyone - will cause people to stop obeying and instead turn against them. Thus purges, paranoia, and violence. As I said, it isn't just communism. The Nazis were the same.

But the political theory question might be: Why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been authoritarian?

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#12

Post by frank_nitti »

creato wrote: post #10
gedy wrote: post #5

I'm not versed enough in political theory to know myself, but why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been so riddled with purges, paranoia, and violence?

People fight against taxes. Now imagine how much harder they would fight if the tax man wanted 100% of their income and wealth. Now imagine what it takes for the tax man to overcome that resistance. Purges, paranoia, and violence sounds like just the start.

The "tax man" may actually represent the will of more individuals in your scenario, but those that are fighting against him are far more rich and powerful.

When the rich and powerful unite against the tax man and the "proletariat", they always win.

So, when you say "people fight against taxes", we should clarify what people we are talking about. Plenty of people supported the collectivist movements of the era, and they are also people.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#14

Post by dragonwriter »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #11
gedy wrote: post #5

I'm not versed enough in political theory to know myself, but why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been so riddled with purges, paranoia, and violence?

All authoritarian movements and governments are. By their nature, they rule by power , not by "consent of the governed". Those at the top always are few, and rule through others. And they know that if those others stop obeying their orders, it's all over. They fear that someone - anyone - will cause people to stop obeying and instead turn against them. Thus purges, paranoia, and violence. As I said, it isn't just com…

> But the political theory question might be: Why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been authoritarian?

All communist governments (not all communist movements, and this is actually the source of many breaches between communist movements that aren't governments, particularly in the West, and communist governments and the movements aligned with them) are rooted in Leninist vanguardism, a specific and particularly authoritarian rewriting of Marxist theory to avoid the dependence on developed democratic capitalist society with broad proletarian class consciousness and grassroots leadership as prerequisite to communism.

But the French Revolution, which was ideologically far from authoritarian, had a lot of the same practical problems; trying to run a state with active counterrevolutionary forces tends to make people authoritarians for what they see as temporary and pragmatic necessity as a means to achieving a more free end-state (and defenders of Leninist vanguardism would probably see it as just that!)

Americans sometimes forget that what we call our “revolution” was not an anti-elite revolution but an elite-led regional separatist movement coordinated by the local governments acting in concert, and so avoided many of the challenges found in genuine revolutions.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#15

Post by weirdstuff »

wait-a-minute wrote: post #8
gedy wrote: post #5

I'm not versed enough in political theory to know myself, but why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been so riddled with purges, paranoia, and violence?

Because communism is inherently a violent and paranoid ideology. It's blatantly obvious even in the foundational literature from Marx. Marx openly advocated violence and threatened violence against anyone who was opposed to the proletariat. Not only that, but he construed a framework in which anything opposing the proletariat, including "class antagonisms" that could be literally anything, should be opposed with forc…

It’s amazing how controversial Marx is 150 years later, and I’ve only ever met one actual “authority” on the matter outside Marx’s actual writings. (And I’m in economics!)

Makes me think there’s something very lasting about his ideas, moral interpretations aside.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#16

Post by oh_sigh »

RangerScience wrote: post #6
gedy wrote: post #5

I'm not versed enough in political theory to know myself, but why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been so riddled with purges, paranoia, and violence?

I would hazard a guess that it has something to with most revolutions being riddle with purges, paranoia and violence, and then that most (AFAIK) modern revolutions are communist movements. In other words, AFAIK (which isn't far), it's a trait of revolutions, not of communist movements.

Why were those things notably absent in the US revolution?

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#17

Post by partialrecall »

dragonwriter wrote: post #14
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All authoritarian movements and governments are. By their nature, they rule by power , not by "consent of the governed". Those at the top always are few, and rule through others. And they know that if those others stop obeying their orders, it's all over. They fear that someone - anyone - will cause people to stop obeying and instead turn against them. Thus purges, paranoia, and violence. As I said, it isn't just com…

> But the political theory question might be: Why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been authoritarian? All communist governments (not all communist movements, and this is actually the source of many breaches between communist movements that aren't governments, particularly in the West, and communist governments and the movements aligned with them) are rooted in Leninist vanguardism, a specific a…

Even during the American Revolution, there were instances of loyalists being abused, sometimes even lynched, socially ostracized, and generally made to feel unwelcome. Many ended up fleeing to Canada. In fact, the very term 'lynch' likely comes from the name of an American revolutionary who organized anti-loyalist action: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Lynch_(judge)

That said, it's still a far cry from the scale and severity of violence seen in various later revolutions.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#18

Post by cheaprentalyeti »

RangerScience wrote: post #6
gedy wrote: post #5

I'm not versed enough in political theory to know myself, but why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been so riddled with purges, paranoia, and violence?

I would hazard a guess that it has something to with most revolutions being riddle with purges, paranoia and violence, and then that most (AFAIK) modern revolutions are communist movements. In other words, AFAIK (which isn't far), it's a trait of revolutions, not of communist movements.

Except that all communist countries as implemented not only started with revolution but follow a doctrine of the permanent revolution. Which is how they can be sixty or seventy years on and talking about the danger of counter-revolutionaries...

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#19

Post by aalleavitch »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #11
gedy wrote: post #5

I'm not versed enough in political theory to know myself, but why have seemingly all communist movements and governments been so riddled with purges, paranoia, and violence?

All authoritarian movements and governments are. By their nature, they rule by power , not by "consent of the governed". Those at the top always are few, and rule through others. And they know that if those others stop obeying their orders, it's all over. They fear that someone - anyone - will cause people to stop obeying and instead turn against them. Thus purges, paranoia, and violence. As I said, it isn't just com…

“Seemingly”. Other forms of communism get swept up in the purges.

Re: The Plot to Assassinate Orwell

#20

Post by cheaprentalyeti »

weirdstuff wrote: post #15
wait-a-minute wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because communism is inherently a violent and paranoid ideology. It's blatantly obvious even in the foundational literature from Marx. Marx openly advocated violence and threatened violence against anyone who was opposed to the proletariat. Not only that, but he construed a framework in which anything opposing the proletariat, including "class antagonisms" that could be literally anything, should be opposed with forc…

It’s amazing how controversial Marx is 150 years later, and I’ve only ever met one actual “authority” on the matter outside Marx’s actual writings. (And I’m in economics!) Makes me think there’s something very lasting about his ideas, moral interpretations aside.

It's a very compelling religion of the modern age. That doesn't mean it can't be wrong.
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