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Uber lays off 435 people

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Re: Uber lays off 435 people

#261
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True self driving (no driver, no steering wheel) is far enough away that we don't know for sure if it will ever actually happen.

Well, obviously the people at Google think it's possible or they wouldn't keep investing in Waymo.

Google invests in a lot of moonshot projects, and also shuts down projects regularly. To their credit, they are willing to invest in high risk/high reward stuff, so the fact that Google is investing in something doesn't actually mean that this thing will succeed, or not be cancelled in the future.

But remember that there is a lot of value between "no computer on board" and "fully self-driving". Cars already have things like lane assist technology, smarter cruising technology, collision avoidance, software to help maintain distance between the car ahead of you, smarter breaking, better mapping and routing technology.

These are valuable features that can generate revenue even if fully automated self-driving cars never happen, or happen in 100 years. These are also features that can help older drivers with slower reaction times stay behind the wheel and keep driving, thus increasing the number of human drivers.

Re: Uber lays off 435 people

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Be the first with self-driving taxis This is thrown out all the time. How exactly does this save them? Are they going to spend billions to purchase and maintain a fleet of their own taxis? Are they going to be paying people to "borrow" their self-driving cabs? Something else? I just don't see how this suddenly changes the equation in a meaningful way. People aren't going to spend more for a self-driving ride and th…

Because self driving cars, while expensive, are still significantly cheaper that employing drivers. Furthermore, it could be argued that you need less self driving cars than cars with drivers, as they never need to take breaks, and can work all hours of the day. It would also drastically decrease ubers cost of entering new cities - previously they relied on driver incentives, this flattens the variation in cost great…

> Because self driving cars, while expensive, are still significantly cheaper that employing drivers.

Are they? How much does a self driving car go for in today's market? And does your calculation include the fact that a driver comes with free car, maintenance, fuel, etc.

Even if the numbers do add up, SDVs aren't about to roll out next week. Remember how close we were to VR for about 30 years?

Re: Uber lays off 435 people

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're saying software devs are just cogs that can be easily replaced?

Yes

You can't just swap out members of a team, or add more members to a team, and expect the result to be faster execution (in short run) even if the new team members are high performers.

In the first case, you're losing team members with tribal knowledge of the system and its requirements. In the second case, you're exponentially increasing the pathways of communication. In either case, you still have the ramp-up time for new team members.

Re: Uber lays off 435 people

#264
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But of course, when you just oversimplify what the app actually does it sounds like it should be so darn easy to make and maintain. It's like saying Microsoft Office is "just an app that writes documents" or that GMail is "just an email client." Uber and Lyft do a whole lot more than what you described on the scale of millions of concurrent users in dozens of countries. Your comparison to a taxi isn't really a great…

I work for a company that does kinda similar software stuff for vehicles - Uber has about two orders of magnitude more drivers than my company, but about three orders of magnitude more engineers - it's almost like they've got diseconomies of scale.

Two orders of magnitude are a lot of orders of magnitude. It could be the difference between using really easy off-the-shelf solutions to having to architect your own technology to solve scaling issues like Google has.

Re: Uber lays off 435 people

#265

Probably some reality shaking out. Uber's engineering team puts out some impressive stuff, often as OSS. Their engineering blogs are regularly on HN. I've been genuinely surprised that they churn out some of these things and release them for free given their relatively extreme financial situation. In contrast to companies like Google, Apple, Microsoft, Amazon etc. that have mountains of their own money to burn (rathe…

I have also been impressed by everything they are producing and I'm actually really wondering why do they need all of those new OSS projects. They need to scale but to an order of magnitude lower than most other webscales. None of their application is data heavy I have said this before but they seem to have a strong "must be built here" culture. You typically see this in highly political environments where engineers…

> None of their application is data heavy

Really?? They have O(thousands) of drivers in O(hundreds) of cities with the app open, sending and receiving data approximately all day.

What companies in your mind are data heavy?

Re: Uber lays off 435 people

#266
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But of course, when you just oversimplify what the app actually does it sounds like it should be so darn easy to make and maintain. It's like saying Microsoft Office is "just an app that writes documents" or that GMail is "just an email client." Uber and Lyft do a whole lot more than what you described on the scale of millions of concurrent users in dozens of countries. Your comparison to a taxi isn't really a great…

I work for a company that does kinda similar software stuff for vehicles - Uber has about two orders of magnitude more drivers than my company, but about three orders of magnitude more engineers - it's almost like they've got diseconomies of scale.

and how many countries and markets does your company operate in? Products do not just magically scale to 80+ countries.

Re: Uber lays off 435 people

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't really cost anything to open source something though. These are all projects which are developed for a reason: the commercial version might be prohibitively expensive at Uber scale, or not technically capable of operating at Uber scale, or just plain doesn't exist yet. At that point you can engage with the tech community and offer it as OSS (not to mention make your engineers happy), or you can keep it to…

> It doesn't really cost anything... Depending on context, sure this could be true. Like if you're comparing the cost of releasing some small OSS module of Uber's to Uber's annual revenue, sure, it's going to be a negligible cost. But if you compare against the cost of developing the module in the first place, it can easily be an equal expense. For example I spent several months on a BLE library for Android ( https:/…

> If it becomes at all popular then you have further ongoing overhead.

THIS is the one that comes into play. All that stuff you listed before is a slog to go through when you go to open-source, but unless you're parking the thing as a proof-of-concept/end-of-life, you're now signed up for maintaining the repo. That means triaging issues, pull requests, helping out when contributors don't understand why their build is breaking, etc.

And there's the PM aspect of it: you don't just want to develop a bunch of features without talking to your community, so communicating (in a public friendly way) what you're planning to work on, when folks might reasonably expect that, how they might be able to help out, which of their contributed features you might be able to take depending on where you're at in your lifecycle, and RESPONDING TO COMMENTS all takes way more time than just "building [closed-source] product" in a team of 5-20.

And of course, one of the hardest of all: telling people "no, we can't take that change" when they've spent hours and hours doing work for your project for free. In that regard, we're still very much iterating on a transparent design process that allows for consensus BEFORE too much work has been done (though as we all know, building prototypes is often one of the best ways to find out if a design works right or not).

If you're doing it all right, everyone involved in the project should be doing some amount of all of this every single day. There's no compartmentalizing an engineer on an OSS project as "someone who just writes feature code" vs. "someone who does the repo stuff".

So going back to OP's point: no, it doesn't literally "cost anything" (or very much) to do the basic act of open-sourcing, doing it the "right way" at scale where you're truly engaging and working with the bazaar is very expensive.

Full disclosure: I'm a PM at Microsoft working on PowerShell and was heavily involved in it being open-sourced and ported to macOS/Linux.

Re: Uber lays off 435 people

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Saying they're ~ "culling the low performers" can be entirely true Even if it isn't they have just branded everybody with 'Uber' on their CV that is on the market a low performer. Think before you speak.

It's especially a dick move when everybody already knows they're hurting for cash, and the official position could be "we just can't afford all these people" without the company losing any face. They aren't fooling anybody by pretending it's not about the cost.

Layoffs are always a failure of leadership, but leadership will always choose to dodge blame if given an out. Hence, "low performers."

Re: Uber lays off 435 people

#269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uber's stock has been going down the drain. Why would they give more reason's for investors to cash out?

In most situations market reacts positively to layofss unless there is a BK looming.

Indeed, HP (or HPE and HP Inc.) has done many layoffs in the past few decades. I just narrowly dodged one a number of years ago. Pretty much always the goal is to simply reduce costs without reducing revenue (as much). Investors don't care how much staff you have, they just care if you are making money.

Re: Uber lays off 435 people

#270
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But of course, when you just oversimplify what the app actually does it sounds like it should be so darn easy to make and maintain. It's like saying Microsoft Office is "just an app that writes documents" or that GMail is "just an email client." Uber and Lyft do a whole lot more than what you described on the scale of millions of concurrent users in dozens of countries. Your comparison to a taxi isn't really a great…

>Uber and Lyft do a whole lot more than what you described on the scale of millions of concurrent users in dozens of countries. which is my point. There's no use in engineering and coordinating something that organises itself. The utility of a centrally managed service needs to be balanced against the resources it costs to run the operation. Taxis actually don't spent as much time sitting around as you think, traffic…

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