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Gas Plants Will Get Crushed by Wind, Solar by 2035: Study

bloomberg.com

21–30 of 204 posts

Re: Gas Plants Will Get Crushed by Wind, Solar by 2035: Study

#21
post #10

Sorry to thread jack, but- important question: how are people reading Bloomberg now that they shut down incognito mode as of this week? Disabling Javascript doesn't seem to work either. I'm using Outline for the time being, but it's slow and annoying, and it won't load any longforms that contain multiple pictures or graphs. Anyone else have a better solution?

Temporary containers with Firefox.

Re: Gas Plants Will Get Crushed by Wind, Solar by 2035: Study

#22
post #19

My understanding (which is probably uninformed at best) has been that coal, nuclear, etc are used to cover base load, and basically work best when up and running at 100% all the time. Natural gas has the advantage that it can be spun up and down pretty quickly, which has meant that it is used primarily for "peak" load, which I think used to be covered a lot of the time by things such as diesel and oil plants and have…

"...to build new wind and solar farms equipped with storage systems"

I think the "with storage systems" part is crucial here.

Re: Gas Plants Will Get Crushed by Wind, Solar by 2035: Study

#23
post #3

Gas Plants Will Get Crushed by Wind, Solar and big batteries . Without some form of storage, peaking power plants are required to support wind and solar, and these are typically gas-fired.

From TFA: "...to build new wind and solar farms equipped with storage systems"

Re: Gas Plants Will Get Crushed by Wind, Solar by 2035: Study

#25
post #3

Gas Plants Will Get Crushed by Wind, Solar and big batteries . Without some form of storage, peaking power plants are required to support wind and solar, and these are typically gas-fired.

Hydro can act as a giant battery and the reservoirs already exist in much of the US and Europe.

Re: Gas Plants Will Get Crushed by Wind, Solar by 2035: Study

#26

There are at least 5 better alternatives to wind and solar, but we don't teach science any more in public schools. If we did, there wouldn't even BE climate change alarmist hysteria poised to destroy entire economies.

Are you talking about natural gas?

I can think of a couple of other renewable resources: Geothermal and Hydroelectric, but Geothermal is geographically limited and Hydroelectric has proven to have more environmental impact than we would like. I have no idea on what the other three could be. I guess you could include Nuclear in the list, but the price points on that make it hard to declare it better than Solar and Wind.

Re: Gas Plants Will Get Crushed by Wind, Solar by 2035: Study

#27
post #8
post #2

I hope this is a solid study and not just wishful thinking. I've been looking at pricing, and right now, fracked gas plants are running around $40/mwh, with wind at under $50/mwh and PV solar (no battery storage) at around $60/mwh. Coal and traditional nuclear are running around $100/mwh (these are all rounded numbers from memory, don't get unhelpfully pedantic!). These numbers are obliterating both coal and nuclear.…

> and nuclear plants are shutting down a decade or more before official end-of-life, because they're losing major customers to cheaper alternatives that are available right now How? My understanding is that most of the cost of nuclear power comes from building the plant and decommissioning it. Running existing power plants for as long as they can seems like the most economical choice.

In a word, price. As a consumer, do you want a bill for 2 cents a kWh? Or one for 15 cents a kWh?

This example explainsa lot of what's happening: [1].

By way of a brief explanation, wind is expanding so fast in a lot of places that the combination of wind+LNG is just too cheap to compete with. Iowa is particularly bad, because wind is not "unreliable" in Iowa. There's a lot of wind and it's almost always blowing. So they aren't even using those LNG plants that much. Which only lowers the price to consumers even further.

In some states the government has stepped in to protect the nuclear industry. Sometimes with things like carbon credits, that are given for generating power without generating carbon. Then the nuclear plants sell those credits on the free market to raise funds. But in some places government has had to be a good deal more draconian. In Georgia, they've basically made it illegal for anyone in Vogtie's service area to switch away. That's the only way they could get the math to work. (And it still doesn't work. The federal government is still pumping billions in cash into that project.)

[1] - https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy/iowas-only-...

Re: Gas Plants Will Get Crushed by Wind, Solar by 2035: Study

#28
post #3

Gas Plants Will Get Crushed by Wind, Solar and big batteries . Without some form of storage, peaking power plants are required to support wind and solar, and these are typically gas-fired.

Hydro can act as a giant battery and the reservoirs already exist in much of the US and Europe.

And they've being used as storage since the earliest days of the grid. I.e., they're already doing the balancing

Re: Gas Plants Will Get Crushed by Wind, Solar by 2035: Study

#29
post #3

Gas Plants Will Get Crushed by Wind, Solar and big batteries . Without some form of storage, peaking power plants are required to support wind and solar, and these are typically gas-fired.

This assumes that we keep supply and demand pricing models mismatched. The current "fixed price 24/7" model is not set in stone. AC/heating, EV charging, many industrial processes can shift demand and make good forecasts about how flexible their demand is vs average intra-day variation in electricity prices.

Re: Gas Plants Will Get Crushed by Wind, Solar by 2035: Study

#30

No they won't, unless the storage issue is solved.

When the future arrives, lots of people will be amazed at how little of the solution to this "issue" ended up being storage as such and how much turned out to be demand management and reasonable system architecture.
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